Can anybody help with some impartial advice on solar panels? Please?

[PacificDogwood]

I have now sat through to sales people's pitches.
If I never have to hear the word 'warranty' and 'feed in tarrif' again, it'll be soon enough.

What I would like is some technical date, what make of solar panels to they use, where do they come from, what it their output, how much do they degrade over time etc etc?
All I got was sales waffle and promises of a 'cash back' card and £250 if I recommended them to my friends and family. Oh, and that it would cost £10.000, but for me, me being special an'all, they could do it for £8.000 and if we paid outright for £6.999. But if I wanted to discuss it with my husband first, that was fine

I have some questions about fitting the frames to our lead-covered flat roof and how that can remain waterproof once they drill great big holes in to my roof.
I would like to know that those 'buckets' are all about - no drilling, but ballast required to held them down. What's that all about? Does that actually work and does not get air-born in 60mph winds as we get them here from time to time??

I would really love to hear from somebody with a bit of technical or installing knowledge of this. We are 'sold' on the idea of solar panels (mainly to make us less dependent on energy companies, not so much as a 'get rich quick scheme'), but need to decide which company to go with and so far I am NOT filled with confidence.

TIA.

I wonder if they bought a lot of an old spec panel at a low price?

Maybe they are half the power and half the size and half the price?

I believe this Panasonic panel is quite widely used. Observe the size.

eu-solar.panasonic.net/en/products/n-240-n-245/

eu-solar.panasonic.net/fileadmin/user_upload/downloads/technical_documents/VBHN245SJ25_PEWEU_EN.pdf

I have them in Scotland - East coast.
So far coming up to 2 yrs and no problems - even when it was a bit blowy....and it is exposed on a hill side...
House doesn't face South so I have split East/west - so 8 on both sides of the roof -total of 4kW. You generate less than with a south facing roof but start generating earlier in the morning and later at night - which if you work out of the home 9-5pm is when you will be using power.
You only save on your energy bills when you are using what you are generating ...and you don't actually generate that much. To really save lots of money on your bills you have to work around the panels.
Eg As a split system both sides is max 2kW - a fast boil kettle is 3kW...so I will be using at least 1kW of grid energy every time I boil the kettle - so I got a lower wattage, slower to boil kettle...
If you are out at work the panels will likely cover background usage - like fridges/alarms/telephones depending how much they use in the day time, the rest will be fed into the grid.
(Although if you have a hot water tank you can get something (Immersun) which is an immersion that heats water in the tank from any excess electricity you generate).
But if you get home boil the kettle, turn the dishwasher and washing machine on, listen to the radio whilst hoovering you will using all the power you are generating AND quite a bit of grid energy.

You need to stagger things and if you are out all day set things to come on on when you are at work. (Which I think is it a bit dodgy from a fire POV)

Mine were fitted by someone I know (it is their business) who is honest but also very enthusiastic about renewable technologies. As other sales people in this area their figures were very optimistic!!!
They calculate you will use 100% of what you generate and that you will save that on your bills - and you won't...(unless I guess you are extremely disciplined and organised!)
I discounted the savings figures and just took into account the expected FIT payments. I should cover my costs (including lost interest on the money spent) plus a bit - so any savings on my bills are a bonus!

I'm not currently living there ...renovating extremely slowly but there is eg an alarm on 24hrs a day and I do go and do bits of work and mow the lawn etc. Seemed to half my summer usage but almost impossible to say as it is so dependent on what's being done there etc.
From just the FIT payments last year ...I got £450 - which was a bit more (£40 ish) than I need to get per year to cover the instal costs plus interest (And the interest rate I used was 3% so more than anywhere is paying a the moment!). And the day length makes a huge difference - from the highest average amount generated of 17kW a day in early July to 0.8 kW in late Dec. (My FIT payment for over winter quarter was around £30 - the summer quarter - £200+!)

I did look into to the types of panels etc but now can't remember much about it! I know paid about £500 more on a £6k job to get 'gallium' ones (250w MSG PV) rather than 250w MS Poly Blue/Silver ones. Panels lose efficiency over the years but IIRC the gallium ones are supposed to retain efficiency better than the poly. Enough that the £500 seemed worth it.

As for installers - they need to be registered with MCS (www.microgenerationcertification.org) and you can find installers in your area there.
And speak to energy saving trust and get lots of quotes ...and ignore the ones who cold call you!

hi, I'm also interested in this. we are in england and I was looking initially into putting them on my tiny flat roof but that didn't work out for a variety of reasons:

• nothing is allowed higher than roof line without planning
• small roof and can't fit much on or they will be in each others shadow.

I looked at the ballast vs fixings but both looked difficult to me. I think ballast would be my choice in your situation but maybe ask the roofer who did your leading?

So I'm going with a small south facing slope (hope to fit 2) and a larger but still a bit compromised sE facing roof. (will fit between 6 and 10 depending on company). I'm doing my roof at the moment and hope to fit them into the roof rther than hang them on the tiles.

I have two quotes at present. Both assume 50% useage (surprised anyone could assume 100%). the figures suggest they could be paid off in 6/7 years which I was happy about. Does that seem reasonable?

I got the fitters/suppliers from yougen website. I feel like I'm in really uncharted water but I liked both people for differnt reasons (didn't expect to like either). One seems to be a oneman band and has a good range of products, seems to know his stuff. the other was a sales guy was more to the point and sent fitters round to check before quoting. They were really impressive and helpful. I think it might come down t the products on offer. I'm interested to read that they blue/black ones aren't so good as they are the products from the first company. Will find out the names of product sI'm being offered and would love some feedback on them.

We hope to have microinverters rather than string inverters as they are on two roofs and we want to ensure as many work at peak as can. I thought you could go over 4KWP but had to apply to do so? that might just be England. I like the immersun and it makes sense.

Yes, I was told too we could go above 4kW if we applied separately.

EMMA seems to be a similar thing to your Immersun, I think, manechanger?

Thankfully we've had no cold callers, just companies that DH found via some website or another.

I think our search continues.

I understand about using electrical appliances differently. I work part-time and we have children and carer in the house when I am out, so at least some energy will ge used. And then there is all of DH's HiFi requiring multiple amplifiers and pre-amps, all on constant stand-by…

pacific, look at this. guy called Normanscottishinstaller sounds good
www.heatmyhome.co.uk/solar-panels/bad-complaints-of-solar-panel-companies-have-your-say#.VRbvNIWPpfQ

I work at home so I'm hoping we can get above 50%, though perhaps that is just using the kettle...

yes emma sounds similar

btw, why are some people talking about a rush to do it by april1? is something changing again with tarrifs? missed it anyway...

Check with the CAT in Wales as they know people who have done long term comparative tests on PV panels

thanks talkinpeace. that's just what I need

Yes, the tarrif is going down a tiny bit.
I am not in a rush to get it installed AND registered before the 1st , but would like to get it off the ground this spring.

Thanks for the link, mane.

I've linked to this guy before who is an anorak, clearly records his generated energy on his website. He's not a million miles away from us.

Thanks. I'll look at that. I want mine up within 13 weeks as we are putting a new roof on and I have already paid for scaffold etc.

mane mine are black ...it isn't the colour but the technology
I could try and find the proper names -but it is the gallium bit I think that is important??? Actually just found this on google (not the company I used etc -just the spiel and it did seem to check out)
www.scottishsolaruk.co.uk/best-monocrystalline-panels/
but I guess things may have moved on
100% usage was an exaggeration...just checked back and it was about 60% usage but the long term figures assumed that electricity prices would go up etc etc - Over 20 yrs I would get £12,000 FIT & Export and fuel savings of £20k ...I just didn't believe that. (And the other company I got a quote from - haven't still got - gave me very similar figures)
And that was justified - with Scottish Gas the cost per unit (kWh) of my electricity has gone down - total bill went up though because they introduced a standing charge - as I believe most suppliers now have (for that house with such low usage I moved to a company with no standing charge but a higher per unit charge)
I just thought the safest bet was to make sure I covered my costs with just the FIT ...and I am on track to do that. I do want to be green rather than make money...
It might be different now but I looked at going higher than 4kW and at the time it needed more detailed (planning?) permission, I was trying to get it done before the FIT went down further- and also you got a lower feed in payment???

unlucky, Thanks. I realised it wasn't a colour issue!! The ones the company have suggested have been described by them as Blue or Black so i presumed they were the same ones as you were describing. Think they are the most popular ones around - just gone and checked and I can't find any reference to that description so perhaps just misremembered. Haven't been aware of gallium before so I'll google that. Am currently trawling teh cAT website at mo.

Im no where near 4kwp so it's not an issue for me but thought that it might be for someone else. The company said they would fill in the form for me if it were and i think it was about the feed in tarrif and alerting them. As it's not a problem for me I stopped listening...

unlucky, just a quick look and it looks like gallium is what makes monochristaline rather than polychristaline. I'm already going for mono as they seem to produce more. Happy for anyone to correct me if I'm wrong.

Ok ...that's what they are - and everything I did read did make it seem worthwhile to spend the bit extra...
If you are having the roof redone have you looked at solar roof tiles/slates...
They weren't an option for me (roof in good condition anyway) so didn't look into them and not sure how much they cost etc... but they do seem like a fantastic idea. They look much better than panels. I suspect they are the future....
(Personally think all new builds should be done with them)

I have been toying with the idea of system life.

At the moment we expect a system to last 20 years or more. However my guess is that long before then, we will have panels that are so cheap to buy, and so much more efficient, that we won't see any value in our old panels (what would you pay for a computer that was twenty years old, or ten, or even five? Would you buy a five-year-old model of energy saving lightbulb?)

The panels on your roof are probably approaching 20% efficient, but there are other designs that have made their way off the drawing board that produce twice or three times as much. I expect their production cost will drop as time goes on.

see here upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/PVeff%28rev150319%29.jpg

Sorry for the delay, Pacific - these were the guys we used. No hard sell, no messing about. They fitted the lot in a day, did an extra job (can't say what as I'll out myself) into the cost, tidied everything up and basically just got on with it.

I agree piglet to an extent ...technology is moving so fast. But then there will always be the next thing...you can wait for ever.

House we are renovating I had rewired - didn't desperately need doing but probably will in 10yrs - so thought get the mess over with whilst it is an empty shell. I had extra telephone sockets in - but then I now have handsets that don't need sockets - can pick up the signal from a base unit. It has a satellite dish and a new aerial - but we are all going to on demand tv ... lots of sockets but I suspect we are going to be moving onto wireless electrical appliances..I don't think you can future proof anymore.
The thing that nearly stopped me having it done is a technology that is currently in development. A paint that carries electricity. No more burying cables in walls - literally you just paint it on to say a light socket. So you would need redecoration but not the expensive plaster dust mess nightmare that is currently a rewire...

You paint to a light socket -instead of cable - not onto the actual light socket

Ooh, I want me some of that paint

Well, there are some solar panels fitted in the 60s that are still generating energy, so I am just going to take my chances with what's around just now tbh.

300W panels seems to be £500-600 just now - per panel.
If we are going to stick to 4KW (and we have the room on our roof + it will all be invisible on a high-level flat roof) then we'll just have 15-16 panels, rather than 13ish and be done with it.

I found another couple of localish companies that seems to not go overboard with the hard sell (instant turn off for me) and will try and set up some meeting with them next week.

Hi Unlucky I asked about solar tiles/slates but apparently they are much less efficient. I like the idea of in-roof mounting which replace the tiles anyway and have decided to stick to standard panels. One lot produce 327w and the other 300w depending on which company I go for.

I agree with the points raised about system life and technology advancing onwards etc etc however I think that, as we are doing the roof now, it makes a lot of sense to save a bit on installation and design the roof around having the technology. I was reading a report from about 2006/7 and the suggestion that a 2kwp system would cost around £13k so in 7 years the price is now less than half. For me its the right time as the amount it costs to install is a less pricey mistake if the figures turn out to be optimistic than it would have been 7 years ago.

Shame about the tiles...maybe in the future they will improve but I'd do what you are doing and go for the panels now...

just found a link to this on the which site. a list of hearings for installers who may have done something wrong. good idea to check your installer isnt on there before using.
www.recc.org.uk/scheme/non-compliance-panel/hearings

That's an excellent link, thank you, manechanger.

This gives some technical info about different panels - v technical…

Heat my home has a lively forum - well, not as lively as here

We've just had a salesman here. Seemed knowledgeable and not high pressure. We even managed to get him to leave while we thought about it! Will cost us 7k and save us at least £500 a year. Still thinking....