neighbour doing permitted dev without issuing party wall agreement

[annoyednow]

In this saga, neighbour submitted app. drawings with incorrect boundary. We think they were issued with request for form B from council and are not proceeding with this as the guy (not applicant or owner on form) called to our door tonight and said to my husband that they had permitted development and were going ahead with this. DH asked about the party wall notice and guy said he understood he didn't need to issue one if he came in a little from the boundary.

His depiction of boundary on map was in my garden so this could mean the actual boundary or really astride the correct boundary, which we have not agreed to. He could have given any old plans to building control. Wherever he builds will be within 3 metres of party wall, so excavations will be there. He did not show or provide any plans.

Do I ring building control tomorrow to see plans? Do I ring chartered surveyor? Do I ring insurance re legal fees and can I then choose a good lawyer and see about injunction until party wall notice issued?

Help!

Please, please can someone give me some guidance?

You seem to have a lot of problems with your neighbours. No idea how to help as our neighbours have been an absolute delight over our party wall agreement and planning. This my help though. A simple Google search.

www.communities.gov.uk/publications/planningandbuilding/partywall

Even if they are not building up to boundary they may still need to give notice if they are digging foundations within a certain distance. Building control might be able to yell you what to do if notice has not been issued.

Thank you Fish. However that just says to inform them of the act and send a copy of the booklet if party wall act isn't issued. Or seek injunction or legal redress if they have started without issuing where required. Don't want to have to retrospectively try to claw our property back in court. Will building control give me a copy of the plans submitted so I can see if they are using the fake boundary and saying party wall is theirs alone, I wonder?

Yep. I'm kinda in a bad place with these new owners coming in trying it on. The people without the dropped kerb are ok, if entitled. The aggressive guy is probably one to watch though. I was thinking of him when that man was in the news. The one who became very aggressive and shot the off duty policeman and then himself in the graveyard. The extension people are not violent at least.. I hope!

Can't you see the plans online? - all of the plans are online on our councils website. You could also call the planning office and ask for them to be sent out.

No, it's building control now, not planning. They have abandoned the planning permission application, I think. They are doing the extension under permitted development and may be starting any day.

If it was built in their garden, stepped in from boundary so it could be maintained from their side and 3m deep by 3m high that would be fine and didn't trouble ours (maybe hoarding or netting their side to catch the rubbish). Trouble is I know from the planning application they are not to be trusted.

I guess they will have to put steel joist in the party wall when opening back wall to extension. Foundations will def. be excavated within 3m of party wall.

If they put a load of balderdash into the application that planning would actually check, what will they do without scrutiny?

Have you tried speaking to them?

They don't live next door. The guy just called to state they were starting pd and then left. They have haven't really visited the property lately and drive home to wherever they live after anyway. Their agent was arguing the party wall was in our garden. The last time (and only time said more than hello) I really talked to (and saw) them was two months ago. They did not mention they were claiming part of my garden in drawings prepared two weeks prior to that. Then I didn't see them again until the planning inspector visited the properties a week ago. She was there as the sole owner and applicant. She didn't approach or say anything. Saw her in the garden with the inspectors.

They never made any contact about why they may have thought the boundary was in our garden and have never bothered to clarify. We had to hire a chartered surveyor when we got notice from the council about application as I thought there may be some validity. Nah. Corball at front of house shows party wall and boundary is in middle of this. Party wall is on a plane to the end of wall and then the boundary continues with imaginary line on other face of our ancient fencing. Couldn't be more straightforward according to surveyor.

Morally outraged I am at the neck of them.

hi annoyednow.i am sure your name is an understatement.i sympathise with you as i had this problem a few years ago but with a planning application. I got the planning officer out and showed her the plans and how it would translate on the ground.she agreed and asked them to amend the plans which they did but it still didn't deal with the boundary issue.in the meantime the officer went on maternity leave, permission was granted and within days they had started work.
I managed to halt it with the threat of am injunction for breach of the party wall act and then took steps to protect our position.
I don't know so much about permitted development but my advice is as follows;
Take photos as evidence as soon as possible.take more photos anytime they change anything.also take photos showing measurements.i had lots of photos taken of me with a measure!
Check your house insurance for legal cover.we got invaluable help from ours.they said they would apply for an emergency injunction if necessary and it made me feel better to know we had someone on our side. We also had a surveyor to plot out our boundary and prepare a report.it was expensive and not needed in the end but again it made us feel more equipped to deal with it.
I havent looked at it for ages but am sure the party wall act says any building within 3m falls in act. We said we wanted them to pay for our own report as set out in the act and they backed off.they didnt have the funds to do it properly.
This left us with no dividing wall between the boundary so we decided to put a fence up when it was clear nothing was happening. This has made it more difficult for them as they would need our permission to take it down. I think their permission has now expired!
I know permitted development may be more tricky but i hope this helps a bit and that someone with more experience will be along soon.it may also be wopti posting in legal stuff?

They have the builders next door now. They are flouting what they are supposed to do. I am not surprised really, but who the hell do I ring. Of all days, I've arranged a day out with some friends of my son. I'm bringing them out.

If they put a false boundary in my garden on a map for planning, I guess it's not surprising they are not going to issue party wall notice.

Appoint a party wall surveyor. All chartered surveyors will have a specialist in party wall issues who will understand exactly what they can and can't do under the Party Wall Act. They will also be able to advise which solicitor locally is good with boundary issues.

Generally the Party Wall surveyors are not that expensive, but check if your house insurers will help with legal costs... It is in their interests to do so.

I was also contact the local council surveyor as he will be checking the development for Building Regs, so will be involved...

Good luck, but the law is pretty developed in this area and a decent surveyor/solicitor should be able to let you know quickly whether you have a case.

They're not out the back yet. But I can't wait around watching my fence. I'll ring council

Confused as well as annoyed. They haven't had any contact with building control. I think he said to my husband they had done something with building control and were starting on the pd extension.

Does anyone know what notices or anything official you have to do with the council before starting on an extension under permitted development?

Fish, I guess yours went swimmingly 'cos you didn't try it on with boundary and actually dealt with the party wall act where appropriate.

hi again.sorry only just had chance to come back on.didnt read yous first post properly.i see now you have already had a surveyor who found in yous favour.could you call him for advice on a lawyer.have you tried yous home insurance.what is happening now? I know it is awful to have this going on.stay in the house if you can.if they come onto yous land to do anything that is trespass without party wall act notice.let us know.i am here and will try to do whatever i can to help.

I don't know why you keep posting these threads - you never seem to actually take the advice!!

Anyway...... if they excavate within 3m of the boundary they need to serve a notice under the party wall act. Put that on a (nice if you can manage that) note through their door in case they are not aware of it. They should serve notice something like 4 weeks before the start of the notifiable work.

Call 2 or 3 party wall surveyors and chat through the situation with them. Ask them for a fee proposal to work for you as the "adjoining owner". When the fee proposals arrive copy them and put them through the neighbour's door saying that you would be happy to have any of the followingy surveyors repressent you when they come to serve notices as the neighbours will have to pay their fees.

If they have planning permission through permitted development rights then they may have altered the scheme. If you had got/kept yourself on speaking terms with them you would probably have had the benefit of seeing and commenting on those plans in a positive fashion. Unfortunately because you have decided to avoid discussing things with them and sniping at them via the council to stir up trouble you have alienated yourself and so are left in the dark. Not a good move.

Anyway..... if they are doing work under PD rights then I imagine that they are currently getting plans drawn up by a structural engineer and perhaps re-tendering the work with a builder. That would take a minimum of 4-6 weeks. So it might be a similar amount of time before they would be notifying building control - although if they have a longer programme it could take longer. They might do the party wall notices roughly about the same time as notifying building control.

So far it doesn't seem like they are flouting very much at all and by saying that they are, you undermine your own credibility. You still have time to deal open and honestly with them to get to the bottom of what apprea to be some unfortunate misunderstandings. But if you continue to deal with them this way you are almost certain to get what you do not want. Be careful....

Take photos which clearly show where the boundary lies.

Thanks for replies. I was out as the day was planned in advance. The fence is still there.

tricot, I do take the advice. Got surveyor and issues for planning objection. They didn't talk about anything with us. They put dodgy boundary on plan and disappeared for two months. I don't see how this is a problem with me. I think putting and insisting on opportunistic boundary is pretty much setting tone for interaction. Also, my husband said the guy said they wouldn't be issuing party wall anything as they are stepping in slightly from the boundary and therefore don't need it. I don't whether he's referring to his wishful boundary or the real one. Husband said our surveyor said it was needed, but guy said he understood from his builder it was not needed. So he said to husband that he was not going to do it. Our surveyor had issued a letter to her as applicant and owner about the boundary and said they would need to issue party wall act. They do not misunderstand. They want to flout their need to issue it.

So insisting on boundary being in our garden without any qualified professional input for his position and saying he's not going to issue party wall notice ('cos his builder said it wasn't needed). Is that open and honest? We got a chartered surveyor in to investigate their boundary claim and dealt very openly and courteously in objection. Not what's happening in their dealings.

They do not have planning permission at all. It is still awaiting decision as their planning application is paused awaiting a response to planning's request to fill in the correct form B instead of A and listing all the owners of app. site. The planning inspector said the plan showed encroachment on our property when he called to us and after he viewed the party wall and boundary. That was the beauty of planning in relation to people like that. It caught dishonesty of the plans. No misunderstandings.

I believe because of this they are going the permitted development route as they are not really assessed. This may have been prepared at the earlier part of the planning application which is still ongoing. This is obviously a 3m deep X3m to eaves extension.

Husband talked to insurance legal today and they said they would pay for court stuff only. If they damage our property we could sue through them. A court injunction would cost us. There are plenty of photos of fence position as our surveyor took some and the planning inspector took photos of our side as well. The party wall stuff seems to be fairly toothless as there is no enforcement if not issued. I don't know what damage a steel joist could do to party wall.

I think my main concern (in a very tired state) is any dust, detritus or incidental from the building on my side. As well as any damage to my fence. If they damage pond and it leaks could they then turn around and blame any subsequent damage on us. Should they have hoarding/netting up? If we suffer at all, who do we contact? Is there such a thing as health and safety or environment in council in relation to this?

Sorry for long post. Does anyone know where or if I can see the plan? Or if there is a need to put hoarding/netting by council. They are not going to issue party wall act so no point looking for it in award.

That must have cost you a lot of cash ouch.

If they are stepping in from the boundary, and you don't have building on your side (as it is your garden), then there is no party wall issue, as there are no foundations on your side to affect. If you are not on speaking terms, you will need to wait and see what they do. yes there might be a bit of dust drifting over, but apart from that and the noise, it won't affect you.

I think you need to step back a bit. I can understand why you were so stressed about the original plans, but they are not proceeding with those. The current plans under pd, stepped back from the boundary, are what you said you would be happy with. It doesn't matter that it is pd, they still have to comply with building regs and the law.

Isn't part of the issue that the OP doesn't know which boundary they are stepping in from - real or imaginary?

If the planning officer has recognised the 'true' boundary then they will need to respect that?

Even if they are respecting the real boundary, extension may be right up to our fence (fence is not the boundary, their side of our fence is the boundary) and still be attaching to party wall. The party wall ends a post thickness further in from the side of our fence facing them. They may still be attaching to party wall, albeit their side of it. They may regard themselves as 'moving in' if they very kindly don't build on our property. All foundations will be roughly within 3 metres and possibly starting from party wall and boundary. They will probably be cutting into party wall to put steel joist up. All these require party wall notice. He has categorically stated he will not be issuing one as his builder said he doesn't need one. Husband rang the surveyor who we hired to investigate their boundary claim and he said these works (even moving in slightly will require a pw notice and he has previously sent them a letter courteously outlining both boundary and party wall issues). What with using an architectural technician to define our boundary and pronounce on party walls, I am slightly underwhelmed with the lengths they have gone to to to be correct and neighbourly. We even hired a qualified professional to see if their claim held water.

The planning officers inspection on both sides and subsequent request for a true declaration does not come into the equation at all if they are going pd. All they would have needed to do is decrease the dimensions of build. I don't believe respect is in their vocabulary.

I don't understand why every one is saying 'we're' not on talking terms. The house has been empty for over a year. Nobody lives there. They don't live and have never lived there. We don't know where they live. They submitted an application with a cowboy defining party walls and boundaries and we didn't hear directly from them for two months. They are not going to issue party wall notices, even though everything they are going to do requires one. Yes, we are definitely the ones who are not neighbourly.

No, they did not fill in declaration form B of application for permission and planning are recommending a refusal. Boundary dispute and looks like they are encroaching on our property in plan referred to in report. Haven't seen it yet.

3x3 under pd, maintained from their side with simple courtesy of respecting our correct boundary would be ok. Courtesy and neighbourliness was not their starting point so am anticipating a cavalier attitude to us to continue. Nothing is pointing to any altered attitude.

Chartered surveyor said we would have to go down injunction route if they do not issue pw notice. I don't really want to be forced into litigation and don't know what to do re pw notice. But doing it the reasonable and courteous way via chartered surveyor didn't stop spurious claim on boundary. Is an injunction expensive? Would I have to go to a lawyer? Husband rang lawyer specializing in property at the beginning and he said to avoid going to court if we could. We thought hiring the chartered surveyor would give some sort of definitive proclamation on the boundary and when he revealed all of the wall between was entirely a party wall and straddled the boundary we thought that was enough.

No, they did not fill in declaration form B of application for permission and planning are recommending a refusal. Boundary dispute and looks like they are encroaching on our property in plan referred to in report. Haven't seen it yet.

3x3 under pd, maintained from their side with simple courtesy of respecting our correct boundary would be ok. Courtesy and neighbourliness was not their starting point so am anticipating a cavalier attitude to us to continue. Nothing is pointing to any altered attitude.

Chartered surveyor said we would have to go down injunction route if they do not issue pw notice. I don't really want to be forced into litigation and don't know what to do re pw notice. But doing it the reasonable and courteous way via chartered surveyor didn't stop spurious claim on boundary. Is an injunction expensive? Would I have to go to a lawyer? Husband rang lawyer specializing in property at the beginning and he said to avoid going to court if we could. We thought hiring the chartered surveyor would give some sort of definitive proclamation on the boundary and when he revealed all of the wall between was entirely a party wall and straddled the boundary we thought that was enough.

I think the 3 metres bit only applies if their foundations are going to be deeper than yours. If the bit of your house that sticks out near to boundary is a recent build/extension, then it's likely you'll have the same depth of foundations.