neighbour doing permitted dev without issuing party wall agreement

[annoyednow]

In this saga, neighbour submitted app. drawings with incorrect boundary. We think they were issued with request for form B from council and are not proceeding with this as the guy (not applicant or owner on form) called to our door tonight and said to my husband that they had permitted development and were going ahead with this. DH asked about the party wall notice and guy said he understood he didn't need to issue one if he came in a little from the boundary.

His depiction of boundary on map was in my garden so this could mean the actual boundary or really astride the correct boundary, which we have not agreed to. He could have given any old plans to building control. Wherever he builds will be within 3 metres of party wall, so excavations will be there. He did not show or provide any plans.

Do I ring building control tomorrow to see plans? Do I ring chartered surveyor? Do I ring insurance re legal fees and can I then choose a good lawyer and see about injunction until party wall notice issued?

Help!

No, they did not fill in declaration form B of application for permission and planning are recommending a refusal. Boundary dispute and looks like they are encroaching on our property in plan referred to in report. Haven't seen it yet.

3x3 under pd, maintained from their side with simple courtesy of respecting our correct boundary would be ok. Courtesy and neighbourliness was not their starting point so am anticipating a cavalier attitude to us to continue. Nothing is pointing to any altered attitude.

Chartered surveyor said we would have to go down injunction route if they do not issue pw notice. I don't really want to be forced into litigation and don't know what to do re pw notice. But doing it the reasonable and courteous way via chartered surveyor didn't stop spurious claim on boundary. Is an injunction expensive? Would I have to go to a lawyer? Husband rang lawyer specializing in property at the beginning and he said to avoid going to court if we could. We thought hiring the chartered surveyor would give some sort of definitive proclamation on the boundary and when he revealed all of the wall between was entirely a party wall and straddled the boundary we thought that was enough.

No, they did not fill in declaration form B of application for permission and planning are recommending a refusal. Boundary dispute and looks like they are encroaching on our property in plan referred to in report. Haven't seen it yet.

3x3 under pd, maintained from their side with simple courtesy of respecting our correct boundary would be ok. Courtesy and neighbourliness was not their starting point so am anticipating a cavalier attitude to us to continue. Nothing is pointing to any altered attitude.

Chartered surveyor said we would have to go down injunction route if they do not issue pw notice. I don't really want to be forced into litigation and don't know what to do re pw notice. But doing it the reasonable and courteous way via chartered surveyor didn't stop spurious claim on boundary. Is an injunction expensive? Would I have to go to a lawyer? Husband rang lawyer specializing in property at the beginning and he said to avoid going to court if we could. We thought hiring the chartered surveyor would give some sort of definitive proclamation on the boundary and when he revealed all of the wall between was entirely a party wall and straddled the boundary we thought that was enough.

Sorry for double postings.

SwedishEdith, the houses are nigh on 100 years old so I don't know depth of foundations. They are not saying they did an investigation and the the new foundations would not be deeper. You would think so but Oh no. They wouldn't bother to actually base it on fact. It is simply that Builder says no. In any case, they are not admitting to party wall. I believe their reference point to our house may be one where they wish it to be, not the reality. I think they are basing it on our nearest property/structure being more than 3m away, not edge of party wall which will be around 3m from all the new foundations.

The planning decision is made. Refusal. Too deep, high, overpowering, detrimental to amenities, un-neighbourly. Conservation has lashed it too even in relation to the rest of their own house. It is interesting how they get to comment on planning application but no input on pd design. Makes an joke of our conservation area status.

Makes it a bit silly not classifying all conservation area as article four. It should really be in or out. I imagine with permitted development conservation area outside article 4 areas will lose the character and then be removed from conservation area, as there will not be any character left to conserve.

Also mentions re 'boundary dispute' and says any other applications would have to have form B ownership showing our house ownership if continuing party wall line.

Also for any Certificate of Lawful Development for pd they would have to show clear step in from party wall line and not overlap our garden.

They will probably now proceed with pd and ignore party wall requirements the same way they disregarded boundary in planning app. The thing is planning caught them in planning app. but we're on our own re. party wall requirements.

I'm sick of these charlatans.

Doe anyone know if the kind of foundations commonly used in semi-detached houses 100 years ago is usually shallower or deeper than foundations used for extensions today?

Also if opening up rear wall to a new extension, does the new supporting beam impact on side walls of room?

Coming from the other side of the fence (as it were) we are planning an extension which our neighbours are not overly happy about. We almost certainly do need a party wall agreement (detached houses but quite close together) - however, our neighbours have taken the initiative and contracted a party wall surveyor to act on their behalf, but which we will have to pay for (as the ones undertaking the building work). Could you contact a surveyor yourselves and see what they suggest? I am pretty sure it would be your neighbours' expense, not yours, so I'd say you've little to lose?

Ask the surveyor who advised you for an estimate for an injunction - ask for a verbal one that you'll firm up in writing quickly if that becomes necessary.

LemonEmma, I don't believe our objection to what would in total be a 7 metre building line along our attached boundary was unreasonable, considering they were also going to build on our property! The council were of the same mind. Ok, not happy with what will amount to a 6m wall along boundary but I understand it's pd rights. It's just unfortunate for us there is already an original 3m extension on that boundary. Were it that simple though. Their application and subsequent spurious argument in claiming our property was contemptuous in manner and lack of basis, so there is no reason to expect pd dev. will be clean either. You're not trying to hornswaggle you neighbours about every single thing.

Neighbouring owners are not engaging with the need for a party wall act at all. They have been informed of all this by our surveyor previously and by my husband. They didn't sign declaration form B in planning app. They are not recognizing the party wall.

Yes, mistlethrush, that's a good idea.

Foundations in a house of that age will be very shallow, certainly not as deep as current standards require

Just to update. They haven't yet progressed with the pd work. The builders must have just been assessing the work when they were here before.

In the light of their statement that they were not going to issue pw notice, we rang up the chartered surveyor who we had hired to look at the misrepresented boundary and the planning app. He sent the applicant a letter saying that a pw notice would be required for excavations within 3m of party wall if below foundations. It was a courteous and matter of fact letter.

She sent it on to their previous party wall surveyor who had drawn the dodgy plans in the first instance for planning app. He must have telephoned our chartered surveyor because he refers to a conservation in the letter he copied to us which was issued to our guy. Again saying the wall is not a party wall and they do not need to issue excavation notice, only line of junction notice (and this would be just to inform us they were proceeding). He said again the wall is wholly owned by them; this is the ruddy boundary dispute still, despite the chartered surveyor and the senior planning inspector who saw it regarding it as a party wall.

They are disputing the boundary but without any real substance on which to base their argument. Their party wall surveyor's letter substance and tone is a world away from what one would expect from a professional surveyor. He is quite personal. Saying things like if we part own the wall, then we won't mind paying for it's maintenance so, also saying it's wholly owned by next door because we don't have a structure attached to it. He also says to our guy (who is chartered surveyor, rics etc.), 'despite where you think the boundary is'. Also, 'it is unreasonable to consider what you describe as 'a party structure' to be taken into account with regards to a party wall notice'.

I don't want to have to go to court. Why are these bloody people creating a boundary dispute without proving it or resolving it properly. With a proper chartered surveyor's report at least. It's an issue if we want to sell.

And before anyone says we should just talk to them, they don't live there. Also, they are the ones who have drawn in a bizarre boundary and claim part of our garden is theirs based on an unqualified surveyor. But, yes it must be our fault they have created a boundary dispute. Also our surveyor issued them directly a courteous letter merely informing them a pw notice is required and they flick it over to dodgy guy who returns a peevish letter.

Another part of my house (not party wall) will be within the 3 m of excavations as well if they do to line of junction, so a party wall notice would be required anyway. However, I wish this boundary issue to be faced head on.

I feel for you and think you are being very strong in the face of such adversity.
What has happened since your last post? I do hope you have managed to stop this nasty piece of work from getting away it

We were in touch with our chartered surveyor. He talk to their party wall surveyor on the phone and said he didn't understand party walls or the party wall notice and was wrong about both. He said he was a very difficult person and having spoken to him is not at all surprised that things have been so fraught from the beginning if that is who is advising them.

It seems any old Joe can call themselves a party wall surveyor. A person acting as a 'surveyor' under section 10 of the 1996 Act requires no qualifications as a surveyor (or any other profession) and can accept the appointment so long as he or she is not 'a party to the matter' in dispute.

Our chartered surveyor and boundary expert , (which does require professional qualifications), said pw was required for excavations, line of junction and if they put a steel beam in party wall.

Our chartered surveyor also said their pw surveyor informed him they are not going to issue the pw notice. Their woolly pw surveyor said they would only issue a line of junction notice (for info only), as wall is wholly theirs and they don't need to do it for excavations. Didn't mention steel beam.

Another party of our property (and foundations) will also be within 3 m of the works. One of the planning inspectors mentioned the pw notice to us as well.

However, we cannot force them to issue the party wall notice. We have to take lots of photos with dates on them. We are going to send them a letter saying the chartered surveyor who is a boundary expert recognized it as a party wall. Also the planning officer said although the council don't judge such matters, it is considered likely it may be a party wall. If there is any damage to our property in any way we hold them responsible. If they damage the party wall in any way as well.

They're a shower of bounders! I don't want to have to go to court. It's a lot of cash and hassle.

What to do?