How scary is gutting a house?

[Umnitsa]

Having despaired at finding the right house we are now considering buying a property in need of modernisation and doing it up the way we want.

Whilst I may be tempted to do a Sarah Beeny, I am afraid we may bite off more than we can chew and end up hating the house (and each other). So, questions to the brave and wise who have done / are doing it at the moment:

We are thinking of a typical Edwardian or 1930s property ca. 170-190 sq. m which needs to be gutted and then rearranged as a 4-5 bedroom house with 2 bathrooms upstairs and a big kitchen / family room, a big reception, a utility room and a guest cloakroom downstairs. Assuming no loft or side return extension, no subsidence or leaky roof, what would be a realistic budget for it? I appreciate that all depends on the level of spec, but what is the minimum amount one should budget for internal structural works, rewiring, replumbing, flooring, plastering etc?

Ideally we would have the works done in discrete stages, e.g. phase 1 - core structural works, kitchen, 1 bedroom, 1 bathroom; then move in and continue decorating the rest of the house as the budget allows. Is it doable or a recipe for disaster and an eternal building site?

What should we expect timewise? E.g. if we complete, say, 1 May, how long does it normally take to find an architect, get the plans, find builders and do works? Would it be mad to expect moving in by August?

How far in advance should one book builders? Presumably, summer is the busiest season for them, will we have problems getting them start when we need it? We are in London by the way.

Would you recommend using one contractor with a project manager? How much does it increase the cost compared to hiring tradesmen for each job and managing the whole thing ourselves?

What are typical architect's fees?

Finally, if you've done such a project, do you regret going this route or it is perfectly manageable? If you were doing it again, what would you do differently?

Apologies for a long post, I'd really appreciate your advice.

Okay - the expensive bits are plumbing and electrics and anything structural. The minute you start moving stuff around, it gets expensive.

You can also drive the price sky high by being anally retentivehaving an eye for detail, and specifying stuff like floors, taps, plug sockets, design features etc. I still haven't altogether forgiven my hubby for not letting me quadruple the electrics budget in our house so I could get the sockets/light switches I wanted.

So let's say electrics £10k, per bathroom can be done for £2-5k, kitchen maybe £10k, plastering maybe £5k. Structurally moving stuff round and building works - no idea. It sounds vvv expensive.

Have just noticed you are in London - triple those prices!!!

And a lot of this stuff needs to be done at the same time - like if you are having new pipes put in for bathrooms you may as well do it all when they are doing the electrics since all the floorboards will need to come up. And you can't live in it whilst all that is going on (I know - I tried!).

The issue is of course that even though you are adding value to the house, you still need the cash upfront and banks aren't happy about people without experience being inspired by Sarah Beeny!!! You'll find it hard to get a loan to cover it.

Do you really have to gut the house in one go? This used to be the fashion but it is very expensive and difficult to get large mortgages/loans to do the work in this manner. You have to factor in renting for 6-12 months while they finish the work. It does seem if you are not living in the house that the builders are often much, much slower.

Fiddledee Cosmetically it's dead easy to do bit by bit, but for the major works (electrics, moving structural walls, any plumbing etc) it would cost you double if you did it bit by bit. What the OP is describing needs that sort of stuff done.

If it was new bathrooms in existing bathrooms/kitchens or just a bit of a tart up, that's much, much cheaper and much less disruptive so you can do it as and when you have the money.

We are viewing properties at different ends of the "in need of modernisation" spectrum. Some are nice houses that just look tired and need a new kitchen / bathroom / strip floors / wall paint plus a potential to extend at a later stage. There might be a need to rewire and replumb but no moving walls. These would be a more straightforward option.

Then there are two huge probate properties that have taken my fancy - in the same ownership for 30-40 years and look it (walking in one feels like being in a time machine), with some strange extensions, so definitely need gutting. These are the ones I asked about - hugely attractive and hugely dangerous as will definitely suck out all our money...

if you've never done anything like this before then a total gutting will be very, very tough and very, very expensive. i would definitey factor in renting for 6 months and from you OP 50k as a min but obviously depending ont he spec you want.

1st may? madness. unless you get architect commissioned, building regs done in by end of march. it will be the builders that hold you back. a builder that isnt booked in now for summer probably isnt worth using.

We've just bought a probate property. Same ownership since built 50 years ago (and looks it).

I've extended and renovated a property before (the last house we had) and it's very disruptive (and we have two kids now....) but at the end of the day, I couldn't find a house I liked without paying upwards of £550k for a house that wasn't my taste.

Financially, we think it needs £140k to extend and renovate. We paid £345k so the total will be £485k and it will be worth around £560k when done. It's a no brainer.

Also, if you can't get a loan from the bank, consider using "Build Store" as a short term lender. Details are on their website. We think we'll get a loan from the bank because we need only £50k and there's lots of equity in the house/potential, but if you don't have that option, build store are good.

I'm not talking about tarting up a few bathrooms but there is a spectrum. The house we are going to buy you can live in one bit and develop the other side of the property so it makes redevelopment easier. Same owner for 30 years. We have a budget of £150k for all the work but we will do it over 5 years -that is to add 2 bedrooms, a bathroom, kitchen, new garage but the square footage is large.

Do the numbers carefully to completely gut a house. We nearly bought one and realised that it would have been cheaper to knock it down and build it again!

I do this for a living.I lived in the first few for financial reasons.I would not recommend this if the work is extensive and you have a busy child filled life although I did it it was stressful.The last few I have moved into rented for 6 months whilst the basics are done and moved into a replastered plumbed 'shell' and done the finishing touched once I got a feel for the house.You definitely get what you want this way and even factoring in the rental it is also cheaper and you don't cut corners.When the going gets tough and you are living on site you tend to cull some of your wish list because you can't bear the mess and then regret it later.Also when you live in the builders are duty bound to leave the house habitable(ish!) every evening when they go and so progress is slower.When they are in there alone they work faster and do more as they don't need to clean every day and they also want the £ so it is in their interest to be efficient. I am 75% through one atm and I have installed new electrics new period radiators made a combined kitchen diner tv room replastered throughtout all new floors and moved bathroom up to 1st floor.We also built a mezzanine sleepover area on the landing to make up for the bedroom lost to the bathroom.Swept and re did chimneys and now about to strt the garden on Sat! I have spent 29k so far but have designed and managed myself so a bit cheaper.

Am very interested to see the replies as we have just seen a house that requires complete renovation - any ideas on potential cost would be helpful for us too!

It is already just a shell, and they have already re-roofed, put in new windows and done a loft conversion with a very large dormer window, plus all the guttering, but it still needs insulation. An architect has also already done detailed plans, and we will keep kitchen and bathroom in existing places but add extra downstairs loo and possibly shower in the loft. It will need new electrics, new wooden floors (but the base is there) and we would like to put in a spiral staircase instead of the existing one.

The owner reckons this will all cost about 50K (plus cost of kitchen) and take 3 months, but this seems very optimistic to us!
Any thoughts?

If you aren't living in that could easily be done in 3 months

noddy do you put penalties in the contract if they are delayed? It seems if you are not on site they work at a snails pace, and start other jobs. How do you keep them working?

I never pay them anything unless the job is finished to my satisfaction.I was stung a few times in the early days.certain things like gas electrics and structural work requiring building regs is all certificated so I pay once the cert standard is reached .other stuff like kitchens bathrooms decor etc I pay when they have done it to a good standard.I am always on site though and turn up unannounced regularly.

Thanks noddyholder... I think we're a bit paranoid having never done anything like this before - though the owner has done a few which is why he has a clear idea in his head (and has sent us the plans and a detailed list of what needs to be done).

Fiddledee - may I ask how much of your £150K total budget will need to be spent in the beginning for internal structural works / replastering etc to prepare the house for further improvements at a later stage? Do you start by getting an architect draw plans for the house you will ultimately get and then just plan all your works in the next five years around it? Or play it by the ear and do things bit by bit without master plan drawings?

Twosoups - thank you for referring to the Build Store, will check it out.

In people's experience, what is a typical home improvement loan one can get? I did a quick search online and they generally come up to £15K at min 7.5%. A few £25K loans at a much higher interest rate.

Also, do you find it more difficult to get a mortgage for a property in need of modernisation? Especially one that has already been stripped to brickwork?

We are going to get architects in as soon as we move in so we have a master plan. We will then get quotes and divide it into chunks of work.

The house needs redecorating and a bit of replastering but not alot of immediate structural work. Needs new flooring, doors, carpets, curtains throughout but I think this is best when you live in it for a while and understand the lighting etc... Our budget is £50k to do up existing house (£20k of which for bathrooms), £50-75k to add two bedrooms and a bathroom and £50-75k to do the kitchen/garage. What we do first depends on the architects/builders viewpoint. These are southeast prices for a large house.

After nearly buying a place that needed gutting, the survey said every single window needed to be replaced, £1k per window and there were over 20 windows. Also roof needed to be replaced £10-15k. Bathrooms I budget at £8-10k each (there were 3 plus a loo).It all spiralled out of control and we pulled out.

Get a good surveyor. You can also get a builder or architect to look round.

There seems to be alot of houses that need developing on the market at the moment. Professional developers would have snapped these up in the past. If they don't want to do it then it probably doesn't make sense in terms of making money. If its your long term home it can make sense. I don't plan to move for 20 years!

Fiddledee it's not that the professional developers aren't interested - right now, it's often because they can't raise the finance.

I know two developers whose net worth must each be comfortably seven figures, but unless they sell they can't buy, because the banks have made lending impossibly expensive for the self-employed.

So it's happy days for the brave buyer with a big cash stash.

Noddyholder - very useful tips, thank you.

Do you employ one contractor or pick and choose tradesmen for each work? You mentioned you manage the project yourself, how much do you think the cost would increase if you hired a project manager?

I have a team of individuals that I always use. i think a good project manager will ad at least 10% to the overall cost.A good knowledgeable builder is worth a lot tbh.I have never used an architect always have a rough idea of what I want as the finished result and then get a structural surveyor and a good builder involved to calculate ant RSJs etc.When this current house is finished I plan to buy an apartment and only develop houses but never live in them.Had enough!

Noddy,

I notice that you mentioned period radiators in your renovation.

I'm renovating a house at the moment and thinking of installing these. Are they much dearer than standard ones and do they heat a room as efficiently?

Do you mind asking where you got yours from? I've only looked at Bisque and they look ££££

Thanks

(sorry slight thread hijack )

They are more expensive but do look great.The house is really warm your plumber can calculate sizes for you to ensure the correct heat out put or there is a little calculator online somewhere which works it out if you enter the room sizes and how many doors windows etc.My house is v plain so I bought the plain white vienna ones from ebay. apart from in the formal living room where I splashed out on a huge reclaimed cast iron one which has been sprayed pewter.Def look out for deals on the valves on ebay they are really expensive but the right ones look good

We've been living in 1970's hell for this past 4 years. We're about to extend and completely renovate. We spoke to builders after we had planning and after the architect had fleshed out the drawings with all the building control requirements.

First builder we had around to quote said that if people stay in the property he adds 5% to his quote as the build takes longer, he said most builders do the same. We are moving out.

I assume doing things in stages is more costly - builders can save costs by having long term projects to manage - especially if they are good at managing their team's time - our builder is only charging us £1.5k for installing the kitchen - all other quotes from kitchen companies have been around the £2.5k mark. We will try to get the builoder to do the whole lot in one go - but we are doing an enormous amount and our budget has a limit. Timing wise a good builder will always have work planned months in advance - even in this climate all the builders I contacted (all had been personally recommended to me) had a 5 month wait and we were prepared to wait on a good one (we live in the South East). I had seen and heard too much about the bad ones.

In terms of raising finance - our mortguage company is willing to give us up to 85% of our property value in it's current state. That and savings will be enough - we also have set aside 20% contingency and have other savings set aside for a rainy day. We have all costs detailed on a spreadsheet, we will know the impact of over spending immediately. Our aim is to keep the standard at the same "good" level throughout rather than starting high and finishing low because we can't afford anything else.

Not sure if when we're finished the property will be worth what we've spent on it but we're doing this for us to live in for at least 10-15 years - there was nothing else on the market that would have worked for us that didn't need lots of money thrown at it anyway - this way we get exactly what we want.

We're about to start - feel very nervous - we've been planning this for such a long time.

Wow, pinkcushion, good luck with the works! I can imagine how exciting and scary it may be after you've waited for it for years.

Thank you for the insight re how builders operate.

Fiddledee, thank you for sharing the rough split of your budget, useful guidance.

Having seen some more properties and spoken to people who have some experience with renovation we decided against buying one of the grand ruins that I got carried away about. The properties are still very expensive despite their state as they are big and in desirable streets. It seems that the works would be around £200K (maybe more), even if we phase them at least £130K would be required upfront, and as all of you confirm it is actually cheaper to do things in one go. So reverting to the less scary option 1 - buy a neat house from a granny and change the decor... (It will still cause us a lot of headache I am sure...)

Umnitsa - we're redoing our house at the moment : a total gut and redo/restyle job (plus side return extension and loft extension and small second floor extension). The issue we found (and thank god we had the contingency fund) is that you just dont know what extra work will be required until you open up the house - we found all sorts (including incorrect foundations, dangerous joists etc) that we werent expecting to have to deal with. Thankfully we have a sensible builder and experienced project manager who is being fantastic at keeping costs down where possible so worth every penny. When we started off thinking about the works we were told ball park £150-200k to redo: however with extra building control reqs and our desire to ensure a uniform result through out its much nearer the £270k mark (plus that helpful VAT rise pushing prices up).

It will be great when we get back in there though - cant wait. We've moved in rental for the 6 month build period - seemed much more sensible with 2 small boys and definitely helped let the builders get on with things more quickly.