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SheilaFentiman · 03/03/2026 16:18

PinkFruitbat · 03/03/2026 15:13

My understanding is just the minor religious groups.

But the SC might not rule simply on this narrow view but a broader perspective.

I don't know enough about the SC to know this for sure, but I assume they rule on the case presented, not on matters which are not presented.

user149799568 · 03/03/2026 16:26

Palermonese · 03/03/2026 15:20

I rather formed the impression that democracy is what 50.01% or more want.

Was I wrong ?

The UK is not a direct democracy in the main, the exceptions being national referenda. Like Brexit.

Palermonese · 03/03/2026 16:34

user149799568 · 03/03/2026 16:26

The UK is not a direct democracy in the main, the exceptions being national referenda. Like Brexit.

But as I understand it, even then, staying at home counted for nothing ? You needed to actively go and enter a choice for it to be counted ?

I'm just a little confused when figures are used that are supposed to show something and I can't see if that are how the machine sees it, or just how people aren't clear about what happens ?

SheilaFentiman · 03/03/2026 16:39

PinkFruitbat · 03/03/2026 15:21

we might even head to the ECHR. I’m pretty confident on which way their judgement would fall.

Even if three UK courts (who are bound by the ECHR provisions) had ruled against, you are confident that the European court would rule differently?

(I assume that’s what you mean)

If so, why the confidence?

PinkFruitbat · 03/03/2026 16:49

SheilaFentiman · 03/03/2026 16:39

Even if three UK courts (who are bound by the ECHR provisions) had ruled against, you are confident that the European court would rule differently?

(I assume that’s what you mean)

If so, why the confidence?

so far the UK courts have taken everything the government has said at face value. Also, we need the data. We need to see how many kids have left private schools since the VAT was introduced, how much VAT it has raised, but also how much is it costing the state in public school costs. The proper net figures. Only time will afford this.

user149799568 · 03/03/2026 16:52

Palermonese · 03/03/2026 16:34

But as I understand it, even then, staying at home counted for nothing ? You needed to actively go and enter a choice for it to be counted ?

I'm just a little confused when figures are used that are supposed to show something and I can't see if that are how the machine sees it, or just how people aren't clear about what happens ?

Yes. If only 1,000 out of 100,000 eligible voters actually vote in a parliamentary election, 600 for A and 400 for B, the result would be reported as 60% of the votes for A and 40% for B on 1% turnout and the result would be binding even though 99% of the electorate did not vote. When Parliament delegates a decision to the people in a referendum, it can specify a minimum turnout or minimum percentage of the electorate voting for a binding decision, but I don't believe it did so for Brexit.

Owlbookend · 03/03/2026 18:31

The goverment does not have to ensure parents can access education with a specific religous character. They didn't before VAT was introduced.
Parents using state schools might prefer, for example a catholic education, but they may not be able to access a catholic school. This might be because there is no school in their locality with places or because they cannot afford the transport costs. Most LAs pay transport costs to the child's nearest school. If the parents chose a more distant school with their preferred religous ethos they have to pay. Transport costs could easily be £1000+
Prior to VAT many parents could not afford private school fees. Even 'low cost' private schools were financially inacessible to many parents. Some parents who would have preferred a private school with a religious character have always found it unaffordable. Due to VAT their has been an increase in the number of parents who find private unaffordable.
It seems difficult to see how this increase could be seen as a breach of human rights. The increase is dwarfed by the number of families who already found private education unaffordable. Parents can still access private education if they have enough money. Access hasn't been blocked, it is just somewhat more expensive.
Furthermore, the goverment already places barriers to access education of a religous nature, by not supporting transport costs or facilitating religous schools in all localities.

PinkFruitbat · 03/03/2026 18:50

Owlbookend · 03/03/2026 18:31

The goverment does not have to ensure parents can access education with a specific religous character. They didn't before VAT was introduced.
Parents using state schools might prefer, for example a catholic education, but they may not be able to access a catholic school. This might be because there is no school in their locality with places or because they cannot afford the transport costs. Most LAs pay transport costs to the child's nearest school. If the parents chose a more distant school with their preferred religous ethos they have to pay. Transport costs could easily be £1000+
Prior to VAT many parents could not afford private school fees. Even 'low cost' private schools were financially inacessible to many parents. Some parents who would have preferred a private school with a religious character have always found it unaffordable. Due to VAT their has been an increase in the number of parents who find private unaffordable.
It seems difficult to see how this increase could be seen as a breach of human rights. The increase is dwarfed by the number of families who already found private education unaffordable. Parents can still access private education if they have enough money. Access hasn't been blocked, it is just somewhat more expensive.
Furthermore, the goverment already places barriers to access education of a religous nature, by not supporting transport costs or facilitating religous schools in all localities.

Edited

It’s not about ensuring access; it is about not putting up barriers.

Owlbookend · 03/03/2026 18:58

But govermental barriers already exist such as supporting transport costs only for a child's closest school.

Could this type of policy also be challenged?

Owlbookend · 03/03/2026 19:09

Also, i think the interpretation lies in what barriers cannot be put in place to:
A) Offering private education (e. g. Opening and running private schools)
B) All children being able to access private schools
I think it is more a than b when i studied the document that was linked. VAT does not place barriers to private education being offered. Rather it places barriers to some children accessing it.

PinkFruitbat · 03/03/2026 19:22

Owlbookend · 03/03/2026 18:58

But govermental barriers already exist such as supporting transport costs only for a child's closest school.

Could this type of policy also be challenged?

I doubt it.

SheilaFentiman · 03/03/2026 19:30

Agree with @Owlbookend - it’s A, not B.

From the Divisonal judgement, para 83

Here, as noted above, the effect of the challenged measure is to place a proportion of parents currently sending their children to private schools into the same position in which the great majority of parents already find themselves.

PinkFruitbat · 03/03/2026 19:36

SheilaFentiman · 03/03/2026 19:30

Agree with @Owlbookend - it’s A, not B.

From the Divisonal judgement, para 83

Here, as noted above, the effect of the challenged measure is to place a proportion of parents currently sending their children to private schools into the same position in which the great majority of parents already find themselves.

Sounds like a new barrier doesn’t it?

SheilaFentiman · 03/03/2026 19:39

If it is a new barrier, it’s not one the Courts have deemed sufficient to “injure the substance” under (your words - are these quoting the convention?)

Such regulation must never injure the
substance of the right to education nor conflict with other rights enshrined in the Convention.

SheilaFentiman · 03/03/2026 19:42

No one - not the judges and not the government - have said that the impact of VAT won’t mean fewer people can afford private school.

The divisional court noted that if other taxes eg employment or building taxes meant a 20% fee increase then they would not stand in the way of those either

PinkFruitbat · 03/03/2026 19:46

SheilaFentiman · 03/03/2026 19:39

If it is a new barrier, it’s not one the Courts have deemed sufficient to “injure the substance” under (your words - are these quoting the convention?)

Such regulation must never injure the
substance of the right to education nor conflict with other rights enshrined in the Convention.

Based on unchallenged government figures.

The numbers leaving private schools are somewhere between 3 and 8 times larger than they forecast for the initial impact.

The full numbers and costs have not been shared yet. For obvious reasons.

Independent Schools Council believes over 25k have already left. 25k happy kids school turned upside down for no good reason.

SheilaFentiman · 03/03/2026 19:49

PinkFruitbat · 03/03/2026 19:46

Based on unchallenged government figures.

The numbers leaving private schools are somewhere between 3 and 8 times larger than they forecast for the initial impact.

The full numbers and costs have not been shared yet. For obvious reasons.

Independent Schools Council believes over 25k have already left. 25k happy kids school turned upside down for no good reason.

Again, as per my extract above - not necessarily based on any particular figures as the Divisional courts considered it enough that the objective of the policy could be reasonably fulfilled by the policy. The claimants pushed back on the assumptions and the court found the basis for the assumptions as reasonable as the basis for any other forecast.

I really don’t think the ruling will change if the numbers change.

PinkFruitbat · 03/03/2026 19:52

SheilaFentiman · 03/03/2026 19:39

If it is a new barrier, it’s not one the Courts have deemed sufficient to “injure the substance” under (your words - are these quoting the convention?)

Such regulation must never injure the
substance of the right to education nor conflict with other rights enshrined in the Convention.

Not my words; the ECHR.

https://ks.echr.coe.int/documents/d/echr-ks/guide_art_2_protocol_1_eng

VAT on private school fees does not infringe human rights.
PinkFruitbat · 03/03/2026 19:54

SheilaFentiman · 03/03/2026 19:49

Again, as per my extract above - not necessarily based on any particular figures as the Divisional courts considered it enough that the objective of the policy could be reasonably fulfilled by the policy. The claimants pushed back on the assumptions and the court found the basis for the assumptions as reasonable as the basis for any other forecast.

I really don’t think the ruling will change if the numbers change.

You may be right. That’s the judgement so far!

SheilaFentiman · 03/03/2026 20:00

Thanks for confirming it was a direct quote- I thought it probably was.

wiffin · 03/03/2026 20:58

I think the barrier thing will also fail. Because money is the barrier. As it is for many children already. Schools could reduce costs. Or parents could pay more. Or state could subsidise. Or parents could take up a state school place. Whatever, the child is not denied an education. The preferred education has just got more expensive. Which has been happening regardless of VAT. And is already the case for many.

My kids were denied primary education in a non religious school. Well. Not really. We just chose to go to a school we could actually get to as our preferred school was too far away.

PinkCatCushion · 03/03/2026 21:12

The only way private education would be fair is for ALL children, regardless of their parents income, to attend it. ALL children would have the advantages private education brings. The only way I can see this equality of education happening is for ALL education to be state and comprehensive.

PinkFruitbat · 04/03/2026 06:58

PinkCatCushion · 03/03/2026 21:12

The only way private education would be fair is for ALL children, regardless of their parents income, to attend it. ALL children would have the advantages private education brings. The only way I can see this equality of education happening is for ALL education to be state and comprehensive.

The “because I can’t have it, no one should have it” argument.

sounds fair.

PinkFruitbat · 04/03/2026 07:00

wiffin · 03/03/2026 20:58

I think the barrier thing will also fail. Because money is the barrier. As it is for many children already. Schools could reduce costs. Or parents could pay more. Or state could subsidise. Or parents could take up a state school place. Whatever, the child is not denied an education. The preferred education has just got more expensive. Which has been happening regardless of VAT. And is already the case for many.

My kids were denied primary education in a non religious school. Well. Not really. We just chose to go to a school we could actually get to as our preferred school was too far away.

A completely new barrier introduced into a already working and mature system. 20% mid-school year. Implemented for maximum disruption, with minimal consultation.

SheilaFentiman · 04/03/2026 07:32

PinkFruitbat · 04/03/2026 07:00

A completely new barrier introduced into a already working and mature system. 20% mid-school year. Implemented for maximum disruption, with minimal consultation.

the courts have accepted the argument that introducing it in Jan 2025 rather than Sep 2025 would raise considerably more money for the measure (£900m was the figure mentioned)

the VAT began applying mid school year, but that was known before the start of the Sep 2024 school year as reeves announced the timing of it in July 2024 IIRC

the policy was in the Labour manifesto. the timing of the election within 2024 was at the selection of the Tories. Had the election been in q1 2024, the policy would have come in from Sep 2024 (allowing the summer term for notice).

(Indeed, my school flagged pre election what they planned to do with fees over the next 3 years in the event of a Labour win and on the expectation that the measure might be immediate (ie from Sep 2024). So our bill went up a fair bit, a term earlier than it would have done otherwise.)