Are your children’s vaccines up to date?

Set a reminder

Please or to access all these features

Private school

Connect with fellow parents here about private schooling. Parents seeking advice on boarding school can vist our dedicated forum.

Are your children’s vaccines up to date?
Thread gallery
8
PinkFruitbat · 03/03/2026 13:59

Mithral · 03/03/2026 12:55

So if (as you say here and I agree with you) there is no right, for any particular child, to a private education then what right do you think is being infringed by the fees increasing?

In so far as:

The right to education guaranteed by the first sentence of Article 2 of Protocol no. 1 by its very
nature calls for regulation by the State, regulation which may vary in time and place according to the
needs and resources of the community and of individuals. Such regulation must never injure the
substance of the right to education nor conflict with other rights enshrined in the Convention.

SheilaFentiman · 03/03/2026 14:04

PinkFruitbat · 03/03/2026 13:59

In so far as:

The right to education guaranteed by the first sentence of Article 2 of Protocol no. 1 by its very
nature calls for regulation by the State, regulation which may vary in time and place according to the
needs and resources of the community and of individuals. Such regulation must never injure the
substance of the right to education nor conflict with other rights enshrined in the Convention.

But the substance of a right to education isn’t being violated. I would imagine that would cover things like blocking all planning permission to build a private school or removing state accreditation for any maths teacher who taught in a private school or something. Not the application of a tax.

PinkFruitbat · 03/03/2026 14:07

soundslikeDaffodil · 03/03/2026 13:20

For those of us who use and care about independent schools, taking this issue to the courts has been a strategic blunder.

No other subgroup affected by Labour's new tax and spend policies has gone through the courts. They have all made their appeals in purely economic and sympathetic terms, and many of them have resulted in U-turns.

Meanwhile, independent school supporters put all their eggs into the legal basket, lost the case, lost any chance at public sympathy, and potentially lost any chance to shift the argument without looking like they are grasping at straws. It was evident from the court hearing last spring that the case was weak, and yet an enormous amount of human capital has been spent trying to defend it.

I wish we could all stop debating the issue on these terms. I don't think it has been useful.

A majority support the government on taxing private schools so winning the court of public opinion was not an option.

And if you stray onto the hate forum which is X then most are enjoying the schadenfreude.

PinkFruitbat · 03/03/2026 14:20

SheilaFentiman · 03/03/2026 14:04

But the substance of a right to education isn’t being violated. I would imagine that would cover things like blocking all planning permission to build a private school or removing state accreditation for any maths teacher who taught in a private school or something. Not the application of a tax.

On this we disagree.

SheilaFentiman · 03/03/2026 14:45

Yes, you and I disagree. As do you and the courts, thus far, at least.

I have also read some of the original (Divisional Court) judgement and reproduce some of the relevant parts below, in case of interest. Bolding is mine.

www.judiciary.uk/judgments/alr-and-others-v-chancellor-of-the-exchequer/

Para 62 :

On Lord Pannick’s case, what makes the measure challenged here objectionable is that it is a tax on the very service (education) to which A2P1 guarantees a right of access. This is a superficially attractive submission, but it does not withstand analysis. Why should a measure which results in a 20 per cent increase in fees (if the tax is fully passed on) be consistent in principle with A2P1 if it is a tax imposed on employers or occupiers of property, but impair the very essence of the right if and because it is a tax imposed on the provision of educational services? In both cases, the impact is the same: it makes the fees unaffordable for a proportion of parents currently sending their children to private schools. This puts them in the same position in which the great majority of parents already find themselves: their options are limited to those which the state makes available free of charge.

Para 83 of the original judgement:

In assessing the breadth of the margin of discretion to be accorded to Parliament, we begin by accepting that the right to education is foundational. In some circumstances (see e.g. Ponomaryov), this will constrain the margin of discretion. But the facts of Ponomaryov were very different. There, access to the state-funded educational system was being systematically denied to lawfully resident children because of their immigration status. Here, as noted above, the effect of the challenged measure is to place a proportion of parents currently sending their children to private schools into the same position in which the great majority of parents already find themselves. Whilst the measure may make certain schools uneconomic, it cannot be said that the imposition of a 20 per cent tax on private school fees (the same rate as is applied to most other services provided for consideration) is tantamount in practice to removing the right to establish a private school. The effects of the challenged measure do not, on their own, justify a particularly narrow margin of discretion.

Para 109:

The four objectives of the challenged measure were raising revenue, ensuring fairness, protecting those with acute needs and minimising the administrative burden and the potential for abuse. These were, in our judgment, both legitimate aims for the purpose of A2P1 and, in principle, sufficiently important to justify the limitation of the important right guaranteed by that provision. We accept that, if there had been no adequate basis for concluding that the proposal would raise net revenue, there would be no rational connection between the measure and its principal objective. In that case, the Government parties’ case on justification would fail at stage 2. However, it is important to note that a party seeking to justify an interference with Convention rights does not have to show that the measure being justified will achieve its objective. It is sufficient that there is a rational connection between the measure and its objective.

Para 219

As we see it, the fundamental difficulty with the claimants’ case is that the clear evidence they rely on (which is now materially agreed) shows not only how bad it might be for them if they had to transfer to the state sector, but also how bad it currently is for many of the 1.1 million children with SEN who are already being educated in that sector. The Government parties have quibbled on points of detail with some of the factual matters contained in the NAO report, but in substance they have acknowledged not only the existence but also the scale of the problem. They agree with the consensus view that the main thing required to remedy it is further funding on a very large scale.

Para 227
Having considered in detail, and rejected, the claimants’ criticisms of the way the Government modelled the effect of creating an exemption for pupils with SEN but no EHCP, it is important to note that the challenged provisions are primary legislation. The main justification was to raise revenue for public spending, including on state education. The exemption now contended for was squarely before Parliament, which was well-placed to consider whether its redistributive aims were justified and what the practical effects of the exemption might be. Even if “weighty reasons” had to be shown to justify the exemption, we consider that there were such reasons. The decision not to create the exemption contended for therefore fell within Parliament’s margin of discretion.

Soontobe60 · 03/03/2026 14:55

PinkFruitbat · 03/03/2026 12:22

It doesn’t say that. You have a right to education; either public or private.

The right for a private school exists. That doesn’t mean everyone can go as they are selective on merit and fees.

You literally said it ‘guarantees the right to a non state education’

PinkFruitbat · 03/03/2026 14:57

SheilaFentiman · 03/03/2026 14:45

Yes, you and I disagree. As do you and the courts, thus far, at least.

I have also read some of the original (Divisional Court) judgement and reproduce some of the relevant parts below, in case of interest. Bolding is mine.

www.judiciary.uk/judgments/alr-and-others-v-chancellor-of-the-exchequer/

Para 62 :

On Lord Pannick’s case, what makes the measure challenged here objectionable is that it is a tax on the very service (education) to which A2P1 guarantees a right of access. This is a superficially attractive submission, but it does not withstand analysis. Why should a measure which results in a 20 per cent increase in fees (if the tax is fully passed on) be consistent in principle with A2P1 if it is a tax imposed on employers or occupiers of property, but impair the very essence of the right if and because it is a tax imposed on the provision of educational services? In both cases, the impact is the same: it makes the fees unaffordable for a proportion of parents currently sending their children to private schools. This puts them in the same position in which the great majority of parents already find themselves: their options are limited to those which the state makes available free of charge.

Para 83 of the original judgement:

In assessing the breadth of the margin of discretion to be accorded to Parliament, we begin by accepting that the right to education is foundational. In some circumstances (see e.g. Ponomaryov), this will constrain the margin of discretion. But the facts of Ponomaryov were very different. There, access to the state-funded educational system was being systematically denied to lawfully resident children because of their immigration status. Here, as noted above, the effect of the challenged measure is to place a proportion of parents currently sending their children to private schools into the same position in which the great majority of parents already find themselves. Whilst the measure may make certain schools uneconomic, it cannot be said that the imposition of a 20 per cent tax on private school fees (the same rate as is applied to most other services provided for consideration) is tantamount in practice to removing the right to establish a private school. The effects of the challenged measure do not, on their own, justify a particularly narrow margin of discretion.

Para 109:

The four objectives of the challenged measure were raising revenue, ensuring fairness, protecting those with acute needs and minimising the administrative burden and the potential for abuse. These were, in our judgment, both legitimate aims for the purpose of A2P1 and, in principle, sufficiently important to justify the limitation of the important right guaranteed by that provision. We accept that, if there had been no adequate basis for concluding that the proposal would raise net revenue, there would be no rational connection between the measure and its principal objective. In that case, the Government parties’ case on justification would fail at stage 2. However, it is important to note that a party seeking to justify an interference with Convention rights does not have to show that the measure being justified will achieve its objective. It is sufficient that there is a rational connection between the measure and its objective.

Para 219

As we see it, the fundamental difficulty with the claimants’ case is that the clear evidence they rely on (which is now materially agreed) shows not only how bad it might be for them if they had to transfer to the state sector, but also how bad it currently is for many of the 1.1 million children with SEN who are already being educated in that sector. The Government parties have quibbled on points of detail with some of the factual matters contained in the NAO report, but in substance they have acknowledged not only the existence but also the scale of the problem. They agree with the consensus view that the main thing required to remedy it is further funding on a very large scale.

Para 227
Having considered in detail, and rejected, the claimants’ criticisms of the way the Government modelled the effect of creating an exemption for pupils with SEN but no EHCP, it is important to note that the challenged provisions are primary legislation. The main justification was to raise revenue for public spending, including on state education. The exemption now contended for was squarely before Parliament, which was well-placed to consider whether its redistributive aims were justified and what the practical effects of the exemption might be. Even if “weighty reasons” had to be shown to justify the exemption, we consider that there were such reasons. The decision not to create the exemption contended for therefore fell within Parliament’s margin of discretion.

Thanks for this. I’m looking forwards to the Supreme Cour’s view. I hope they will consider the law in the broadest sense; to include minor faith and disability perspectives. By then the supposed economic/social merits will have melted away;

  • 6500 new teachers
  • 1.5 million new homes
  • CoCo pops for children disadvantaged by their parents
PinkFruitbat · 03/03/2026 15:03

Soontobe60 · 03/03/2026 14:55

You literally said it ‘guarantees the right to a non state education’

I didn’t say that. I said;

“guarantees the right to non-state education”

meaning the right of non-state education to exist/operate.

you added an ‘a’ in the sentence.

Which changes the sentence to suggest all are guaranteed a non-state education.

this I have already said is incorrect.

SheilaFentiman · 03/03/2026 15:06

PinkFruitbat · 03/03/2026 14:57

Thanks for this. I’m looking forwards to the Supreme Cour’s view. I hope they will consider the law in the broadest sense; to include minor faith and disability perspectives. By then the supposed economic/social merits will have melted away;

  • 6500 new teachers
  • 1.5 million new homes
  • CoCo pops for children disadvantaged by their parents

Do you know which, if any, of the groups who took it to the Divisional Court plan to go to the Supreme Court?

Given that - thus far - it is only the 'low cost religious school' group of the initial Divisional claimants who have gone to the High Court on appeal and have had that appeal dismissed.

SheilaFentiman · 03/03/2026 15:08

Re the outcome in terms of breakfast clubs/numbers of teachers, I would draw your attention to this from the Divisional judgement.

Para 109:
The four objectives of the challenged measure were raising revenue, ensuring fairness, protecting those with acute needs and minimising the administrative burden and the potential for abuse. These were, in our judgment, both legitimate aims for the purpose of A2P1 and, in principle, sufficiently important to justify the limitation of the important right guaranteed by that provision. We accept that, if there had been no adequate basis for concluding that the proposal would raise net revenue, there would be no rational connection between the measure and its principal objective. In that case, the Government parties’ case on justification would fail at stage 2. However, it is important to note that a party seeking to justify an interference with Convention rights does not have to show that the measure being justified will achieve its objective. It is sufficient that there is a rational connection between the measure and its objective.

PinkFruitbat · 03/03/2026 15:12

SheilaFentiman · 03/03/2026 15:08

Re the outcome in terms of breakfast clubs/numbers of teachers, I would draw your attention to this from the Divisional judgement.

Para 109:
The four objectives of the challenged measure were raising revenue, ensuring fairness, protecting those with acute needs and minimising the administrative burden and the potential for abuse. These were, in our judgment, both legitimate aims for the purpose of A2P1 and, in principle, sufficiently important to justify the limitation of the important right guaranteed by that provision. We accept that, if there had been no adequate basis for concluding that the proposal would raise net revenue, there would be no rational connection between the measure and its principal objective. In that case, the Government parties’ case on justification would fail at stage 2. However, it is important to note that a party seeking to justify an interference with Convention rights does not have to show that the measure being justified will achieve its objective. It is sufficient that there is a rational connection between the measure and its objective.

Mmmm yes I think Starmer picked up on this the day of the court judgement - saying the money would pay for housing.

Essentially a “fuck you” we can and will do what we want with the tax money.

https://www.isc.co.uk/media-enquiries/news-press-releases-statements/vat-on-fees-schools-were-promised-that-the-money-raised-if-any-would-go-to-state-education/

Palermonese · 03/03/2026 15:13

A majority support the government on taxing private schools so winning the court of public opinion was not an option.

Isn't that democracy then ?

PinkFruitbat · 03/03/2026 15:13

SheilaFentiman · 03/03/2026 15:06

Do you know which, if any, of the groups who took it to the Divisional Court plan to go to the Supreme Court?

Given that - thus far - it is only the 'low cost religious school' group of the initial Divisional claimants who have gone to the High Court on appeal and have had that appeal dismissed.

My understanding is just the minor religious groups.

But the SC might not rule simply on this narrow view but a broader perspective.

PinkFruitbat · 03/03/2026 15:15

Palermonese · 03/03/2026 15:13

A majority support the government on taxing private schools so winning the court of public opinion was not an option.

Isn't that democracy then ?

A consistent majority of the public want the reintroduction of the death penalty. That doesn’t mean democracy should prevail in this instance.

Palermonese · 03/03/2026 15:16

But the SC might not rule simply on this narrow view but a broader perspective.

Or not rule at all ? If they are content with the lower courts decision ?

Bargepole45 · 03/03/2026 15:19

Palermonese · 03/03/2026 15:13

A majority support the government on taxing private schools so winning the court of public opinion was not an option.

Isn't that democracy then ?

Democracy is always intertwined with practicality. For example, the majority of people support rent controls but these have been proven not to work in the vast majority of countries. Most people are attracted to the idea of lower rents but don't necessarily understand or care about the long term damage this can do to the country's housing situation. Equally most people want spending increases in lots of areas but don't support tax rises when it impacts them. This is why wealth taxes and even this private school tax gain traction because it's seen as an easy way to raise money without actually impacting most people. The fact that these taxes don't really work and cause all sorts of undesirable consequences don't bother people when they want easy solutions.

Palermonese · 03/03/2026 15:20

Bargepole45 · 03/03/2026 15:19

Democracy is always intertwined with practicality. For example, the majority of people support rent controls but these have been proven not to work in the vast majority of countries. Most people are attracted to the idea of lower rents but don't necessarily understand or care about the long term damage this can do to the country's housing situation. Equally most people want spending increases in lots of areas but don't support tax rises when it impacts them. This is why wealth taxes and even this private school tax gain traction because it's seen as an easy way to raise money without actually impacting most people. The fact that these taxes don't really work and cause all sorts of undesirable consequences don't bother people when they want easy solutions.

I rather formed the impression that democracy is what 50.01% or more want.

Was I wrong ?

PinkFruitbat · 03/03/2026 15:21

Palermonese · 03/03/2026 15:16

But the SC might not rule simply on this narrow view but a broader perspective.

Or not rule at all ? If they are content with the lower courts decision ?

we might even head to the ECHR. I’m pretty confident on which way their judgement would fall.

PinkFruitbat · 03/03/2026 15:29

Palermonese · 03/03/2026 15:20

I rather formed the impression that democracy is what 50.01% or more want.

Was I wrong ?

33.7% of the national vote share for this car crash of a Labour government.

Not really a democratic mandate is it?

Bargepole45 · 03/03/2026 15:30

Palermonese · 03/03/2026 15:20

I rather formed the impression that democracy is what 50.01% or more want.

Was I wrong ?

I know you're trying to be pedantic but it is obvious that a democracy doesn't necessarily mean that every policy that is most popular will get enacted by an elected government. As we move towards a more popularist model then you may well find that parties like Reform do seek to represent majority views on key issues like immigration in order to gain power. Do they represent majority views on every policy though? Of course they don't and Reform have stated for example they will abolish VAT on private schools.

Ideally governments shouldn't lurch with public opinion but maintain a responsible approach that will bring long term prosperity and security to the country. Ethics and morality also come into it. The death penalty was mentioned upthread and I would argue taxing education comes into this too. Some people believe that certain things are fundamentally morally wrong irrespective of public opinion. They challenge the basis of our country and our core values. This may seem anti democratic in nature but it's also what would hopefully stop a slide into fascism and extremism.

Palermonese · 03/03/2026 15:42

PinkFruitbat · 03/03/2026 15:29

33.7% of the national vote share for this car crash of a Labour government.

Not really a democratic mandate is it?

Is it any less comparable to previous results ?

My understanding is that in the UK democracy has to be an assertion ? So only active participation counts ? Just staying at home doing nothing isn't counted ?

PinkFruitbat · 03/03/2026 15:47

Palermonese · 03/03/2026 15:42

Is it any less comparable to previous results ?

My understanding is that in the UK democracy has to be an assertion ? So only active participation counts ? Just staying at home doing nothing isn't counted ?

doesn’t really give a mandate to introduce a rushed new policy, mid school year - when your own civil servants tell you it will cause maximum harm. To children. Unless you are on an ideological warpath.

SheilaFentiman · 03/03/2026 16:07

It would be lovely if we could stay on the legals of the cases, there are already buckets of threads about whether the policy is spiteful, vindictive etc

(The timing of the introduction of the policy is also covered in the judgments and was deemed proportionate)

PinkFruitbat · 03/03/2026 16:10

SheilaFentiman · 03/03/2026 16:07

It would be lovely if we could stay on the legals of the cases, there are already buckets of threads about whether the policy is spiteful, vindictive etc

(The timing of the introduction of the policy is also covered in the judgments and was deemed proportionate)

The court took at face value everything the government said without any interrogation, investigation, or exploration. The government consultation was a sham, the timescales ridiculous; but the judge seemed quite happy with it all.

SheilaFentiman · 03/03/2026 16:16

PinkFruitbat · 03/03/2026 15:29

33.7% of the national vote share for this car crash of a Labour government.

Not really a democratic mandate is it?

We have a first past the post system, under which Labour won a large majority, just as Johnson did in 2019. They have a democratic mandate under the UK system. If you want to change the system, there are parties which support the introduction of PR.