Is the selection process as bad as grammar?

[MizzyDazzy]

We are currently thinking we will send our two children to private secondary school because we live in a bit of a black spot for state secondary schools and, while there are some grammar options, I didn't think these were right for my eldest (too early to tell for youngest).

My eldest is doing fine at school, but she is dyslexic and more interested in art and sports. At my kids' school there is a lot of pressure around grammar and a lot of the kids are heavily tutored, with about 70% making it into grammar as a result. But we have decided this is not right for her.

However, I came across this article today suggesting the process is just as awful for private schools https://www.thetimes.com/life-style/parenting/article/private-school-11-plus-hsmpc9gl9

So I guess I am looking for a bit of reassurance... is this just for the super selective private schools? We are looking at ones that say they are mixed ability and consider 'the whole child' when making a decision. Even so, I'm now starting to worry that my eldest will be unprepared.

My DD is meeting expected levels at her primary school in all areas and sometimes hits greater depth in some tests. This is other than spelling, which is dire. But school said they can discount that due to the dyslexia. I know the VR and NVR aren't done at schools, but we found out via the dyslexia test that my daughter was quite good at those. However, we haven't done any tutoring for any of the 11+ tests... and now I'm wondering if we need to?

But equally, I was going for private so that we didn't have to put her through this so do I need to consider the same is the case for private and start seriously considering how we get a state non selective that we are comfortable with (i.e. move!).

Also, what are the interviews like? My DD is very shy.... what sort of things would she be asked?

If anybody knows them, we are currently looking at Radnor Sevenoaks and Farringtons. Daughter is year 4 atm.

Any insights would be appreciated - hopefully that article has made me worry over nothing!

I wouldn’t put all your eggs in one basket. Loads of private schools are closing down and many will be under financial threat in the coming years and thereafter. I have family who have worked in successful private schools for decades and have this week been told they are facing redundancy. Who knows what this will be like in 3 years time when your DC starts or through the 7 years of their secondary school career. Could be disruptive.

70% pass to grammar is spectacular from state school. I would maybe review that, or move to good comprehensive catchment area.

I’ve put 2 through private and then 2 through grammar. The costs were punishing and that was before COLC really kicked in and pre VAT. Year on year it’s hard. One of mine who spectacularly failed the 11+ went to less academic private (dyspraxia and dyslexia) did brilliantly at GCSE, went to top grammar for 6th form and is now 2nd year at Cambridge. Maybe I’ve just proved myself wrong?

It depends entirely on the schools concerned! Some private schools are extremely selective. Others are not at all selective.

I don’t know anything about either of the schools you mention but my understanding from friends who live in Kent and Buckinghamshire is that many of the private senior schools tend to cater to those who are not likely to pass the 11+. The selection tests are therefore not likely to be nearly as difficult as the 11+.

That may not be true of the schools you have mentioned of course, but if they say they are mixed ability I would be surprised if their entrance tests were difficult.

It’s a good school, but I wouldn’t put the high rate of those going to grammar down to the school… it’s the parents and tutoring.

The week before the Kent 11+ there were 10 children in one of the year 6 classes as the parents had taken their children out to practice back to back papers at home. It’s utter madness. I think we will get my daughter to sit the grammar 11+ but I’m not tutoring her in line with her peers, and as she is dyslexic, and nowhere near the top of the class, I think a pass is very unlikely. We don’t live in Kent so the kids have to get even higher to get in to the grammars where we live.

The issue with a state non selective is that we would have to move, which would make affording the private harder so then we’re basically putting our eggs in that basket and moving to an area we don’t want to be. Which is why I’d picked private - but yes now I’m worrying I’ve put all my eggs in the that basket!

Private schools are worse, because there are interviews. My kids all went to grammars, because they are good at exams, but they would have hated being interviewed.

But what if you're not good at exams....? I had thought better chance with private schools whose tests aren't super selective but now I'm worried I've not considered how tough they might be!

It depends on the private school. Some are more selective than grammar schools, others not so much.
My son currently targets one that takes about 5% of applicants….
many select based on tests and interviews, some have other criteria. you need to check the individual school

My DS got 2 offers for indepemdent schools for September this year. One is non selective and DS attended a taster day, during which he was assessed. They also looked at his school report and reference. Our other (first) choice is a broadly selective school. There were 2 applicants for each place. They had assessments in maths, English, NVR and VR, individual interviews, a group interview and a group task. They also asked for a school reference. After a 2 week wait, we heard he had been offered a place. We did employ a tutor for a year and a friend did a mock interview. DS is working at greater depth at school abd is above age related expectations in all areas but as he attends a state primary, we wanted him to be fully prepared. It is a harsh process.

We made a similar decision with our son @MizzyDazzy. I’m sure we could have tutored him to within an inch of his life but I just didn’t want that for him. He has ADHD and he’s doing well in prep but he’s middle/bottom of a very academic year group. He excels in art and science and tech but does less well in maths and English. I had assumed we could just choose private. I hadn’t realised there would be pre-test in year 6 for ISEB fo a lot of schools, so felt a bit on the backfoot. I should have researched it better. I don’t know a huge amount about the two schools you mentioned and I can’t work out where you are if you’re not in Kent but are considering these schools. I believe Bethany doesn’t require testing or interviews. Eastbourne College doesn’t do pre-test (although will request cat4 results from school and CE at year 8) and although there’s an interview it’s really a chat with the parents also there, from what I can tell. Kent college pembury is popular with those not passing 11+. There’s also Dulwich in Cranbrook. I think that it’s the very selective schools that pre-test and use CE. There should be non-selective private options. Where are you as we might be able to help better if we know location?

Thanks, I'm now feeling like we need to rethink again 😩It's all so stressful

Thanks, I’m in Orpington so looking at schools where DD could get a school bus to from here - Farringtons, Radnor Sevenoaks and Bromley High. I think there are a few others but journeys would be longer

Depends on the school and how competitive. My ds got offered a place at the local (v academic) private without too much stress and barely any prep (we went through one set of past papers). He would have done very well on the maths test but not that well on the English elements. He was interviewed with us and had very little at all to say in the interview- in hindsight perhaps it was more about interviewing the parents!

Just read that article and it did make me chuckle! I greeted DD with a packet of mini cheddars after an exam, not an iPhone 🤣

I’m not familiar with your area but DD did sit for grammar / state selective followed by two private schools. She didn’t make it past the first round for the grammar / state selective and got into both private schools, one with an academic scholarship. The one we chose (which she is thriving at) is academically selective but not in that league and considered a rounded school. I found the grammar process seven circles of hell and the private process far more enjoyable. DD’s experience mirrors that.

So I would say, in our experience, no it’s not that bad unless you’re aiming for the perceived crème de la crème. Yes some prep is required but it’s not at the same level of intensity in our experience. And it doesn’t have to take over your life - you can fit it in around fun times and family holidays. DD had one hour of tutoring a week and did little and often around that.

I know a fair few dc that didn’t pass the London grammars but got private school offers. It depends on the area & the individual school.

It obviously depends on the school and the child.

I really would try to get too stressed. If you’re stressed your child will be stressed. It’s important that they understand that if they don’t get a place it isn’t that they aren’t good enough, but rather that the school is looking for different skills than the ones they have and another school will be a better fit.

Have you been around any schools yet, spoken to admissions and understood the process? Most schools have very clear information on their website about process and you can usually find out CAT score requirements at open days. A good local tutor (if you use one) will guide as to which schools might be a good fit for your daughter.

You can practice online tests via Atom learning who offered tailored tests for ££, but it is worth it we found. Past papers are usually downloadable if you want to be some practice in. Group exercises etc they are usually looking for nice kids that listen, take direction and work well in a team. Interviews are fairly standard and easy to gently prep for, they are looking for a bit of personality, curiosity, original thought and to check they haven’t been tutored excessively. Standard questions we’ve had include ‘how would your friends describe you’, ‘tell me about your biggest achievement’, ‘why would you like to come to this school’.

Honestly with VAT we have found that schools are being a little more flexible than they used to. The odds are in your favour! Best of luck.

We moved DC from state to private for yr6 after sitting the practice entrance exam for seniors and the school offering a yr6 place off the back of her results, meaning a senior place is guaranteed.
There was an interview of sorts but it was very relaxed (basically a chat with the staff member while walking round on a tour) and we were also interviewed (invited for coffee with the Head!) Both happened at the same time and took 20 minutes max.
Grammars weren’t really an option for us due distance but some of DCs friends from state primary sat 11 plus pre xmas and the stress was unbelievable! They are still waiting to hear about places (and those that get in will have an hour each way on the bus!)
Quite a few of DCs old classmates also sat the entrance exam for seniors at their current school but there are limited places so glad we moved earlier

We don't live in an area where there are state grammar schools so I can't comment specifically on whether entrance exams and requirements are tougher with great accuracy.

The thing about independent/private schools is that they come in different shapes and sizes. We have 3 that follow something like the traditional grammar school model where the transfer to the senior school (no private school I've come across ever uses the word 'secondary' and rarely 'high') is primarily at Yr7. Test papers are available on their websites. Most people who want a good chance of getting into them get a tutor. They will coach in test papers, group work skills and interview technique. All 3 are mostly academic rather than sporty places but do offer scholarships in sport as well as music etc.

There's one minor public school with a loosely connected feeder school. Children at this prep school get two shots at securing a place by examination assessment - in Yr6 and Yr8 - at the prep school. They start in Yr9 at the public school. The public school has a tiny intake of 30 in Yr7. Most kids joining them are boarders from overseas. They have lots of sports scholarships for the Yr9 intake.

The remainder of the local independent schools that cover years 7 upwards are made up of 2 international schools, 2 faith schools and 2 less difficult to get into schools. We also have 2 other prep schools that are not attached to any offering senior school and both follow the model of Yr9 transfer. We haven't had any school closures here yet but we are not geographically very far away from a couple of notable closures.

How I read the situation is that most schools that are safe bets both academically and in closure proofing terms are ones that will have an admissions process that requires coaching/tutoring. Another thing to bear in mind is that any help or support a dyslexic, dyspraxic, ADHD, AUD child receives can and probably will be an added, charged extra service.

I think there is a massive difference between how competitive the independent schools in London in the top 30 of league tables are, and most of the rest. The problem is that it's in the interest of all schools to make it seem like there is more demand than there actually is for places: people don't want to go to a school that isn't seen as highly desirable, or one that is at risk of closure. So they make the process more stressful than it needs to be just to create that impression.

But, for most private schools I think it's nowhere near as hard to get a place as for grammar (although again there the difference between super-selective grammar and regular grammar in grammar school areas is huge). Also remember that the ratio of offers to places schools need to make is high for most: unless you're in an area with only 1 private option most people will apply to at least 2, and many won't take up offers if they get their first choice of state. I would guess very few schools can confidently fill their places without making at least 2.5 offers per place.

So I would say definitely apply, and then just keep your head - if you're not going for very competitive schools then don't get sucked into the stress of it all. (Don't read Mumsnet threads about it ;))

Also, we actually phoned our top choice school (not a top 50) and asked: they were actually quite honest and said that it wasn't as hard to get in as the process might make you think. If you tell a school they are your first choice then you might find they are quite open with you.

Thank you - this is really helpful and what I think I had thought was the case but then started reading too much and panicked! Ha ha!

We had a small group meeting with the head of our top choice and he said not to worry about the exam too much. I also met with their Senco who was amazing and said they would ignore spelling in my DD’s creative writing paper due to the dyslexia diagnosis and that is the thing she really struggles with. So hopefully if I keep telling them they are our preferred for both our kids it will help 😂

Just feels so much pressure to make the right choices at this point when your children are still young! I wish we had different systems in this country!

The problem is that it's in the interest of all schools to make it seem like there is more demand than there actually is for places: people don't want to go to a school that isn't seen as highly desirable, or one that is at risk of closure. So they make the process more stressful than it needs to be just to create that impression.

100% and as you said a lot of the same dc are applying for the same schools.

The super selective grammars such as St Olaves will be as difficult to get into as the top independents such as Sevenoaks and JAGs. Then the grammars in areas where people relocate from London such as Tonbridge and Cranbrook, then the grammars in the more disadvantaged areas where families don’t tutor so much. Have you considered moving to an area with a strong non-selective, e.g. you could move to be near Bullers Wood, then the could have the option of Bromley High within walking distance. Alternatively, if you are wedded to the independent route, have you considered getting her assessed for an in-year place and moving her earlier?

Yes, I'm not considering any of those schools as they are very selective. We have considered moving specifically for Bullers actually.

To get a similar house to ours in the Bullers catchment would probably be £100-£150k more than ours, plus a loss of £45k ish in stamp duty and double our mortgage. We would also need to keep our nanny to drive our youngest back to school for the next five years (I don't want to move him as very happy with primary school). If we stay put we can manage the drop / pick up ourselves as only 10mins away. So to move is another £35k a year gone on employing our nanny. All of this would make private school very tight (win fact I suspect we would only be able to send one of the children...) so means we would then put all eggs in the Bullers Wood girls and boys basket (too early to know if Bullers boys would be right for my son so a gamble there).

Also we would ideally like to move to a more rural location, and this move is going in the opposite direction . So we are paying a lot more money to live where we don't want to be just to send the kids to a state school.

We have therefore decided it would be better to stay where we are for logistics now, spend the money on private school (which I do think would suit my daughter better) and hopefully move more rural in time.

So we have fully thought through these options - and settled on private - I guess I just hadn't factored in that it might be more compeitive than I'd realised and my DD might not get in... So now I'm worrying again about a decision I thought was made.

I hadn't thought about moving her earlier to avoid the 11+ assessments, but am now thinking that might be a good option!

I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill here OP. If you were targeting a top public school then absolutely there would be tough exams etc. For most standard schools its an exam and an interview. The staff who interview them are very kind and it’s really just a chat to get to know them a bit. Mine weren’t phased at all and weren’t particularly prepped for the interviews.

All of mine got into all the schools that we applied for with no problem including the exams. They are a lot less rigorous than the 11+. Get an idea from the school as to what their expectations are in terms of score but a normal bright kid should be fine going to a normal independent school.

Thank you, I think you are probably right just wondering if we need a back up as I guess I'm not really sure how 'bright' you have to be. I do think my DD is bright but she is dyslexic. So she is meeting expected levels in English and just about in maths at school, but does she need to be achieving 'greater depth'? She is VERY strong in NVR and good at VR.

Just wanted to jump on and suggest you have a good look at Bethany.

The children do sit the CAT4 test but it is to highlight strengths and weaknesses. If a child is significantly behind their age related expectations, a place will probably not be offered. But most do get offered.

There is an informal interview with a senior member of staff. More of a chat than an interview. Usually along the lines of what they enjoy doing at school, what they have like the look of at Bethany so far (after tours and a taster morning etc).

Bethany has a very long and proven track record of working with children who have Dyslexia. Being a Dyslexic learner at Bethany is pretty standard stuff. Very specific support both in and outside of the curriculum.

It’s a lovely, rural school with a good mix of day pupils from all over west and mid Kent and a decent number of international boarders.

As others have posted, financial stability is important at this point. Bethany has been pretty proactive at this, both in the short and longer term.

It really isn’t that competitive. My experience all 4 went to private prep, 2 got into grammar, one we didn’t even sit for grammar and another failed so 2 all the way thru private (except one went back to grammar for 6th form). I have boys and girls and chose private schools for each of their needs so at one point had all 4 of them at different private schools. Obviously I looked at preps both sexes, the secondary and then again for 6th for private and state. All the schools had ‘huge waiting lists’ etc etc and this was pre VAT. It’s all to put the wind up you. Look very closely at SEN / ND provision for your specific child - be clear if the day to day environment is set up to meet these needs and then what additional costs on top of fees for SEN support. Also don’t get swayed by ‘the shiny’ - all the facilities etc. expensive swimming pools, grounds, theatres to maintain - that your DD might not even use. One of mine went to a much more unassuming private school, quite shabby but excellent SEN environment built into the whole school day and did exceptionally well. Post VAT - they will be biting your arm off - same at the elite end - it’s a numbers game and the playing field has altered.

It’s also a deeply emotional and personal decision and comes down to your own choices and values as to how/where you want to spend your money etc.

Don’t panic - DCs come into their own at different times. Academics and careers are long roads. The one of mine who we decided not to sit for grammar 11+ (which was very unusual at her school unless you were aiming for elite boarding / private) pulled off a first in her degree and is on an excellent grad scheme with post grad training paid for by her employer. But when we were looking for 6th forms I thought why are we even looking to do A levels as academics is so hard for her - but that’s when she ‘took off’. So it’s a long journey, enjoy their emotional development etc don’t get derailed by schools marketing or school
gate ‘opinions’ just hone in on what best serves your DDs needs at that time as other options for 6th form.