Number of GCSEs and A levels per pupil

[HeyItsNotRainingToday]

Is it just me or is it incredibly hard to find this information for private secondary schools? All the league tables seem to be by exam, not by student. Surely this encourages many schools to reduce the number of exams each child takes, which is I'm sure the opposite of what we want for our kids! If anyone knows of a league table of, say, 'UCAS points per pupil' or similar please let me know as this is really annoying me. Thanks.

I wouldn't send them to a school where RE is compulsory, for a start!

@HeyItsNotRainingToday, the defunding of IB in the state system from Sept (purely for budgeting reasons) shows the DfE has no interest in widening the curriculum. The Govt’s focus is on vocational training with V levels etc, ie having to specialise at age 16. This is where the money and focus is going.

3 A levels plus EPQ is probably the same work as 4 A levels isn't it?
The extra A levels gives extra knowledge, the EPQ develops other skills.

I would be astonished if your colleagues have children doing 5 (five!) a levels without them being very closely related (eg maths, further maths, stats, physics, electronics)

The school my kids went to encourages pupils to start with 4 but - unless one of the 4 is FM - most will drop one partway through y12. It just gives a good view of how the courses suits the child, especially if one of the a levels is a “new” subject like psychology or politics

To clarify - I don't think any of them did 5 A-level (one did 4.5 but that was just before AS levels changed so unfair comparison with more recent school leavers). Sorry if I gave that impression. And the 4th in most cases was Further Maths or a MFL spoken within their family I think - so I guess it's fair to say that's not adding much breadth to their curriculum. University courses and destinations across both the independent school and state school kids all equally good though.

OK well you did say 4+ which was why some of us thought you were talking about YP taking five A levels.

And if the fourth was usually FM, well as many PP have said, that's quite commonly taken as a fourth A level, both in state and private. If you work with a lot of mathsy ppl it’s not astonishing that their DC have taken those kinds of A levels. Equally an A level in a native language is perhaps quite common. Again, I would think, state of private is not a factor here, particularly.

So I am not sure what your point is? Basically, across state and private, the majority of DC take three A levels or equivalent, unless taking FM as a fourth.

Some offers are UCAS points not grades

In Wales many take 4 or thru do 3 plus Welsh Bacc

My DC school they had to start with 4 for lower 6th. If they only chose 3 then Welsh Bacc was compulsory

Apologies, I am not at all well up on the system in Wales (or Scotland), so I guess my post was talking about England. Sorry for not making that clear; Welsh bac sounds interesting, what does it involve and was it worthwhile?

I get the feeling that you are really looking for choice of subjects beyond the core rather than total number taken. I have no idea about the range offered by private schools (they certainly have the resources and tiny class sizes, so I am sure they could support just a few students choosing a particular subject), but within the state system, the larger the school, the greater the subject choice. At the huge school attended by my children (2,000 students), there were opportunities to study just about anything. DS has 14 GCSEs and started 4 A'levels but stopped photography at AS level because it was taking up too much of his time and wasn't something he wanted to carry doing at uni.

If I were you, I would look at the range of subjects offered at particular schools rather than homogenised score data.

I teach at an academic independent school. We have cut down numbers of GCSE and A levels over the years and focused on broadening enrichment across all key stages. There is absolutely no advantage whatsoever in doing 11 or more GCSEs or 5 A levels. It’s also very easy to find out by looking in the schools’websites or contacting them.

Yes that’s true, but the highest offer will be for the equivalent of 3 A stars, but they would specify that A stars / As are expected. A larger number at lower grades that give the same number of points aren’t what they want.

Generally speaking the more competitive universities do not make offers based on UCAS grades.

I do know what you are saying, my dd1 did 13 GCSE’s all at a star for 3 A’s dd2 did 11 as policy had changed on pe and triple science. Both did 4 a levels as did most bright students. I’m not sure why things have changed in 6 years

It’s made up of 3 different projects which includes participating in community activities - research, global issues, as well as issues at home in Wales and about sustainability and citizenship. Some kids love it, others hate it.

https://qualifications.wales/information-support/qualifications-available-in-wales/advanced-skills-baccalaureate-wales/

GCSE reforms started coming in 10 years ago for the new exams. Most schools changed either immediately or soon after when they realised they couldn't continue with the wider number of subjects with the harder specs.

Similarly when A levels returned to being terminal (not sure when that was) more people started with only 3 again.

A bright class/cohort can still do 10+ GCSEs as they can shoehorn in FM or Stats, maybe get through triple science without using a whole extra option etc.

I'm not concerned about getting hold of the extra data for the schools I'm interested in - I'm sure that will be possible. And the point made about subject choice is a good one. My point is that league tables for independent schools (where less data is available consistently across all schools than for state) seem to be very 1-dimensional. Plus it seems that independent schools seem to encourage (this is anecdotal I admit) very able students to take fewer subjects than state. I just can't help feeling that these two are related.

It's not entirely dissimilar to my DC's current state primary telling the kids that their SATs really matter to them as pupils when we all know they are far more important to the school than to the individual children (I don't want to start a debate on this topic - I suspect it would only prove my point below anyway if it were possible to know which Mumsnet contributers were primary school teachers).

Schools focus on things that matter to them and their stats. And the cultures that grow up in those places (as with any work environment) mean that staff don't even realise they are biased towards the outcomes for the schools themselves - they are brainwashed (too strong a word but can't think of the right one) into believing what they are saying and promoting. This is not a criticism of schools but the league tables.

I'm really arguing that 'per pupil' data should be included in independent school league tables as I think this would help to balance what appears to be a bit of a 'do the minimum number of subjects to get the best uni place' approach which now seems to be common (and is surely partly a consequence of this 1-dimensional league table view).

But independent schools are not encouraging their students to take less than state schools. Do you have facts rather than your 2nd cousin's dog walker's friend's opinion? Indies have the opportunity to offer the IB, but if their pupils take A levels they follow exactly the same approach as state schools. Perhaps the mix of subjects is skewed more towards humanities & not stem, but I doubt it.

This is exactly the problem - these stats don't appear to exist.

Both mine were at selective private schools - finishing in 2020 and 2022.
Most did 9/10 GCSEs. DD did 11, some did more if a foreign language was spoken at home, or something like ancient Greek as a twilight subject. Neither of them took RE.
All students started 4 A level subjects. Some dropped the 4th at some point before Y13, but many carried on with 4. Again, there were a very few that took 5 (usually if one was FM).
The additional subjects would only be allowed if it was fairly certain that it wouldn't result in a drop in grades in the other subjects. That said, there are some very bright kids around, and those who just thrive learning things!
I think you just have to ask at open days etc what the approach of individual schools is. The main constraint is as always going to be timetabling if multiple subjects.

So if you think your unrepresentative poll of families with 4 A levels within a STEM based industry indicates that private schools are dumbing down to protect their position in league tables, I suggest you take a long hard look at the realities of the UK education system. It's designed to help pupils into employment, training or further study, hence 3 A levels as standard. Private schools have a lot more opportunity to built cultural capital into the school day, so this isn't wrapped up in achieving 5 or 6 unnecessary A levels.

You can easily work out the GCSE stats by looking at the number who took English Language etc but really, why is it important? My DCs went to different academic secondary schools. One took 9 GCSEs as standard, the other 10. Others did more if native language, further maths and so on. Both schools did lots of other enrichment activities and community service etc. They were able to do this by not sitting an ever increasing number of GCSEs.
Neither had to do RE or 3 sciences so there was lots of choice available to them and there were so many papers to sit for the 9 or 10 they did that it wouldn’t have been in anyone’s interest for them to do more.
Same with A levels. 3 as standard but time to do other electives in a variety of subjects, community service, life skills etc. A few did 4 but mainly Further Maths. Lots started 4 to give them a taste but dropped one at some point. Did EPQs or an AS level if not doing 4.

That’s really not how it works! Believe it or not we are interested in student wellbeing and critical thinking skills . My department got 4 Oxbridge offers this year - that’s partly because we have worked really hard to create a school of readers and offer Creative Writing as an enrichment choice at 6th form. (Three of the students did CW as well as their other A levels. We also offer a comprehensive series of lectures as part of the 6th form English Society and tailored support.

How do you work this out? I don't think the total number of entries for most subjects (certainly IGCSEs) is published is it? There are plenty of independent schools I can't find this for - or am I just not looking in the right place? They just have to give %s in each grade range.
Again I'm not criticising schools here, but the nature of the league tables. Some schools won't let those influence them, others won't find that so easy.

If you go to any of the independent academic London schools’s ( for example) websites they publish detailed exam results so you can work it out.