Would you even consider private?

[Amberkitten7654321]

We have 3 kids (currently year 3, 1 and pre school).

Joint salary is circa £150k, maybe up to £175 with bonuses although not guaranteed.

considering secondary schools. Our local comp just goes to 16 and is very very average. An average excellent state 6th form however in a nearby city which we’d be very happy with.

we have a nice house worth circa £950k with a very low mortgage due to some remarkable luck buying and selling in London just at the time the prices went nuts.

we could move and downsize and release circa £200k. Have about another £100k odd saved in the bank. Obviously costs of moving to be considered.

would you:
a) suck up the 5 years at average secondary knowing there was a very good 6th form to follow.

b) do 5 years of independent school each and then do state 6th form.

c) move and downsize to be in grammar school catchment and hope at least 2/3 get in, and then the 3rd could do independent?

d) move without downsizing to an area with better state secondaries - even though all the cost and upheaval and leaving of friends that goes with that.

my husband and I both went to private schools (me just for secondary) and really loved our experience. And we just don’t have experience of state secondaries. I don’t know how much “better” one can be than another to justify spending £30k moving and leaving all their friends behind?

the sums seem very very slightly do-able for independent for 5 years but toght and all I read is that if it’s tight don’t even consider it.

I don’t know whether I’d regret moving and starting over or not giving my kids the best opportunity o could…

i really don’t agree. The curriculum really isn’t different unless you are referring to Latin - what are you basing your opinion on? That said I do agree that there are risks to changing schools at any time especially if you choose the wrong school for your child regardless of fee or non-fee paying. But I would say it’s eaiser to move from state to private than it would be to go from private to state.

Remember that private school fees go up at least 5% per year and will at least double between reception and y13

Surely you would need to release equity to pay for 3 dc? personally I would move to someone with excellent state schools & potentially move them for 6th form/help with uni/deposits etc.

Remember that 93% of kids in England go to state funded schools, so there is absolutely no need to feel guilty.

Are the state schools round you average for outcomes, progress, inspection results or all three? What about behaviour and extracurricular opportunities?

An option you haven’t mentioned is state with tutoring at crucial moments. Much cheaper and less upheaval for the whole family.

The fact you have a tiny remaining mortgage and have two incomes taxed separately is probably material. You will have a lot of disposable income on that salary, albeit not a level I would feel comfortable signing up for 3 lots of private school fees. It’s such a millstone and unexpected financial complications may bring the immense guilt of having to move your kids in the other direction mid schooling.

I am state educated and did just fine, school was very average when I went but I was a hard worker and had no SEND. My two kids are both in state and it has been fantastic, no complaints at all. We are in London though and I realise some places have much poorer choices on paper at least.

We downsized to release money for private and it was 100% worth it.

Also I agree with others about not taking private status as a badge of guaranteed quality. There are often no comparable results or metrics to measure private against state options. If it’s just about the experience and enjoyment then do what you think works best for your kids and don’t worry about true value added academically.

Just to expand on the above…worth it not because of the academic results (I think my kids would have excelled academically wherever they went TBH) but because of their day to day enjoyment of their school lives.

Private schools can have quite a different curriculum - eg when do they teach different MFLs? Have DC started French but the new school only has space in Spanish in y9. Sports taught can be very different. Football vs rugby. Cricket and tennis - are they taught? Would dc be complete beginners? Are dc doing the same technology curriculum (same curriculum in any subject really) and what about transferring 2 years of learning in ks3 in the first school into just one year at the new school. Is it seamless? It’s not that easy.

For my dc it would have been abandoning friends. If dc don’t like the school, don’t have friends or are ambivalent: fine. Changing just isn’t that easy for many.

I’d do option b) too. Those early teen years are the most vulnerable - almost independent of parents but very susceptible to peer pressure and huge emotional roller coaster. Pastoral care is equally important as academic/ social/emotional/sports/music development etc in my opinion. Grades alone don’t make a person employable or ready for life. Beware of overly pushy schools on grades - some do off-rolling where they expel lower performing kids to keep their results high. Not interested in those one bit!!

I would also add that my DCs private school only starts entry at 13+ (y9) so everyone starts at the same point. I’m not sure if my DCs would have had such a seamless transition if you could go at 11+ (y7) and a second intake at 13+ (y7).

Many old schools start at 13 or have a considerable intake at 13. Most of these are taking most dc from preps that go to 13. My DDs old prep went to 13. This is far more unusual in London where 11 is the norm. However if schools are looking at Harrow, Eton and other big names they will go to 13. However for 3 dc, these types of schools will be expensive. Outside of London there tend to be both preps to 13 and 11. 11 where I live due to 11 plus. Going state to 13 to save money and then change would be rare here as we have grammars. Most will go private at 11 as it’s a natural change to secondary.

Absolutely no way I could get my DC to part with their friends going into Year 10 nor would I want to. They are happy and well adjusted and have good predicted GCSEs. Your situation is very hypothetical @Amberkitten7654321 & as state schools serve 93% of society you are not doing your children a disservice to be there! Especially if it would be to the detriment of house, holidays & future financial help. Sensible idea to put money aside and see if it’s doable but go and visit schools in year 5 you might be pleasantly surprised- international trips, music, dance/drama & sport occur in state too!

@90swithcigarettesandalcohol It’s usually going into y9. Starting at 13 with all other dc starting at the same time. Going into y10 is unusual.

@90swithcigarettesandalcohol Just meant to add: I’ve never seen dance in any primary school. School orchestras are a rarity. Music lessons in school are hit and miss and who goes on international trips from a primary school? Never seen that. Secondary yes. However even then music and drama can be very average and marginalized. Overall private schools do these subjects better but they offer scholarships to attract pupils. Not that it saves much money but it ensures a strong cohort in the arts.

it would have been the same issue a year earlier then 😁I was just framing it round GCSEs. But I am using my DC as a reference point who have had solid core friendships from state primary through state secondary & they would be very reluctant to part from them. I understand that’s not the case for all DC.

All the primary schools round here do dance, they come together & do a festival at the state secondary too. They also sometimes do a dance festival in the city theatre where dance troupes plus schools join together.

County orchestra available in my DCs primary on Saturday mornings.

I understand that facilities, class sizes and activities, sports must be attractive in private otherwise who would pay? However, painting state schools as cultural vacuums is plainly wrong. Plus on top of the state offer there are lots of activities you can pay for should you wish them to do more sport, drama, art etc.

I personally wouldn’t have been happy with my DC going on international trips without me until they were secondary age anyway. Perfectly good trips to do at activity centres, fossil hunting etc in the UK. We were fortunate enough to be able to affford lovely family holidays abroad when the DC were little.

This is why I suggest actually visiting the schools in question as you can’t take a blanket approach to state schools being inferior or private schools superior. Orated reports and school websites don’t really scratch the surface, You have to add up all the factors in relation to your own D and the schools and extracurriculars on offer!

@90swithcigarettesandalcohol None of that is standard. How do DCs get into the county orchestra? Do all schools have music tuition or is it private lessons? What about orchestras in all schools? We don’t have dance festivals in the countryside. The majority of primary schools do their best but they are way short of what the best preps offer. They do have some great teachers though but you won’t get the extras in a prep.

Yes it is! An absolutely bog standard primary. This is why I'm saying there is more nuance to the debate than state = poor and private = excellence. Shades of grey inbetween. Yes you pay extra for music lessons (other than learning recorder and strings for a term.) Children from different schools come together for the orchestra. Just like children from different schools come together to play cricket or hockey etc in clubs. I am fortunate enough to be financially comfortable as is @Amberkitten7654321 and if your children are in state you can also offer them paid for extra-curriculars as well as the ones provided in-house for free. I don't know why you are so adament @TizerorFizz that children attending state schools can't possibly be getting opprtunties at school!
The other thing to take into consideration @Amberkitten7654321 is if you tie up your money in fees with the costs of living as high as they are (and likely will continue to be) it gives less money for family adventures. We've gone abroad with our DCs three times on very different trips in the last year and I've loved sharing those experiences with them. At the end of the day we all have to live within our means according to our own priorities. State schooling is nothing to be frightened off, just think of the people you studied with at University and who you work with, I'm sure they are all perfectly normal, well balanced people.

@Amberkitten7654321 a quick thought on downsizing - with a family of five be careful as teenagers and their friends get big! Make sure you aren't on top of each other as part of a harmonious household in my experience is the ability to spread out and get away from each other😆

You just don’t even need to think about this yet.

you both may get promoted, inherit or, alternatively, lose your jobs or suffer ill health. Maybe get their names down, pay the (non refundable rip off) deposits, and then forget about it for a few years.

You need to decide why you want to do it. Is it for the academics, the co-curricular or wrap around care, or some combination?

And you have to consider the upside of state schools, probably an extra 75k a year after tax to put towards experiences for the family, sports coaching, tutoring etc. And also, of course, maybe being able to support your children through uni, so they won’t have student debt.

Personally, in your position, I would do state unless it started to fail, and keep your money for security and family experiences. Where you will really kick yourself is if you pay for private and they then don’t thrive, which happens more than people think.

My kids went to private. I would have been happy for them in state for primary but my eldest didn’t get in to the four nearest schools due to oversubscription and the others were not nearly as good and we could afford private - but my DH earned £500k. It would have cost £50k/year for both, but the last school my DD went to is now £35/year with the VAT added. I’m a widow now and afforded her last two years by downsizing, and my son left private to go to a vocational college so didn’t have to pay for him. Otherwise I could not afford it at all and certainly not now with VAT.
My point is not so much state vs private, I don’t know the schools near you, I don’t know your kids, I don’t know you. The benefits are arguable - obviously most successful people did NOT go to private school. And my DD is now at Durham, and despite its reputation says there’s a strong anti private school atmosphere and she tries to avoid saying where she went to school!
But I do know it’s incredible expensive to send three kids private, and you never know what’s around the corner. One of you could get ill and not be able to work. Or like my DH, pass away (my kids were in primary when he did). It’s a huge commitment.

Thanks so much everyone - this has given me SO much to think about!

I agree with a PP above that state primaries can be excellent! Ours is very well run, clean, orderly, calm and they love it. I pay extra for them to do music lessons, orchestra, play some extra sports, and they do lots of clubs out of school like drama, other sports, cubs / beavers etc. they’re thriving at the moment - and I genuinely don’t think they’d be any happier in a prep, except perhaps our logistics would be a LOT easier as they could do a lot more of the clubs within the school day.

I think part of my fear is just the unknown. I went state primary so I feel I understand how that feels. But our state secondaries are large and I went to a small ish very nurturing private secondary so the thought of navigating the teenage years and GCSEs in a much busier environment is just unknown. But I think ultimately they take more responsibility for their learning - we were spoon fed.

i need to look around the schools, and talk to some people who actually have kids similar to mine there!

I agree not all privates are equal - I actually went to look around a v small one near us and was SO underwhelmed by it. Apart from smaller class size I genuinely think my kids would be happier at the state as they have more facilities and just bigger year groups for making sports teams etc!

it is still far away we’re just stuck in a bit of a cycle of knowing we need to spend money on this house but not knowing if we’re moving, or desperately trying to save our money so we end up frozen doing nothing!

also I would note I LOVE holidays - I really place huge value on taking the kids to different new places and giving them experiences that way and I find the thought of taking that opportunity away much harder than loving to a tiny house!

thank you everyone

I know plenty of people with dc in private who pay outside school for additional tutoring & extracurriculars, schools are not all the same.

Me too @sofasoda and when you get to seriously good at a sport or music or something, that always involves extra parental time and £. Good luck @Amberkitten7654321 !

@90swithcigarettesandalcohol Because I was a school governor of 3 schools after working for a LA and my DC attended state and independent schools. I’ve had decades to form my opinions. You might get lucky. You might find extra curricular are very very limited. Both are possible.

Obviously independent schools vary too. The best preps sending dc to elite schools will offer a lot. This is reflected in fees paid. DDs old prep is now £8,000 a term for y3-8. Secondary will be more for a good day school. However everything is included except music tuition and dance. Clubs were included at prep.