School fee VAT and the council, surely this can’t be happening?

[Sat100]

A close friend has told me that at their school, parents have had to move their child out due to being priced out and unfortunately there are no state school places available in the area. The council is now apparently paying the VAT on behalf of this family on account of the fact there is no space in the state sector within a certain mileage of their home. I am in disbelief…has anyone else heard of this happening?!

There’s no reason to suppose that the Beeb won’t cover the final day, as it has the first two days. Obviously the trade tariff issue will dominate the headlines though.

ETA replying to @EHCPerhaps

I think they’ll write it up today but it won’t be in top news items (as it hasn’t been so far afaik)

Happy to say that the BBC is looking for
parents to give views! At the foot of yesterday’s VAT case high court coverage:

Are you personally affected by the issues raised in this story?
Please include a contact number if you are willing to speak to a BBC journalist.
You can also get in touch in the following ways:
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FYI in court the government admitted that state SEN sector is in crisis and not fit for purpose, yet at same time it is acceptable to add an additional tax for parents who seek to support their kids outside of state school system.

Well, it isn't a top news item vs Israel, Ukraine and US trade (and other) insanity, etc etc.

It might be a headline in a subsection like education, but it won't be a main headline.

The accounts of private schools are public information. It will be absolutely evident how much VAT the top public schools end up paying and how much they claw back from HMRC. Surely someone in the Treasury anticipated this and the likely backclash on Labour if the figure ends up being negative for some of the top public schools? No amount of handwringing by certain Labour member self professed tax experts with a voice, in the run up to elections will have put the rich off prepaying, it seems.
Let’s not forget that every lump sum prepaid is not just negative on VAT on school fees, it is likely also negative on income tax on savings in bank accounts. So massive loss to Treasury potentially. Same goes for the cash paid upfront by grandparents. Most of that money would have sat at 4 per cent interest rates, taxed in most cases at at least 40%! That will be millions, right there guys. The private schools who are charities can invest the prepaid sums tax free as they are charities.

Let’s not forget about direct investment into the country and all the non Doms and millionaires leaving as well, as an ideological attack on private education, exacerbates that happening. Starmer & Co will be keeping their fingers crossed that millionaires from the US and China will arrive instead to invest here, but it is not something they can absolutely control.

Surely someone in the Treasury anticipated this and the likely backclash on Labour if the figure ends up being negative for some of the top public schools?

This issue just isn’t that important.

Private school parents will skew more Tory than average and more understanding of taxation than average (because many will be in financial services, a relevant area of law or be partners in eg a dental or gp practice). It is unlikely to surprise many Labour voting private school parents if some vat figures for some wealthy schools end up negative for a while.

For the overall voting population- backlash re national insurance rises and disability benefits will be far more significant.

FYI government KC just stated in court that if a child doesn't have an EHCP then they don't have SEN! Any parent with a child with SEN but without an EHCP needs to be very afraid of this government.

The thing is, the VAT is cheaper than paying for them to go to a state school.

My VAT is about £3K, whereas a state secondary place is £6-7k

Is there a live transcript?

This misses out entirely that the likelihood is no state school can meet this child’s needs. Trust me if they could cram the kid in anywhere they would. The local schools will have seen the EHCP and said they can’t meet the needs. Therefore cheaper to pay the VAT and leave the child where it is.

No just a live stream which you have to register for.

Ah I see. I kind of wish I had now.

“Private school parents will skew more Tory than average and more understanding of taxation than average (because many will be in financial services, a relevant area of law or be partners in eg a dental or gp practice). It is unlikely to surprise many Labour voting private school parents if some vat figures for some wealthy schools end up negative for a while.”

@SheilaFentiman - the press will dine out on this for every single public school and it will be a real embarrassment for Labour. If I were them I would be doing the Maths now. But clearly anticipation and planning is not their forte!

Labour’s cuts to state education won’t go down well given the promises wrt VAT.

If cuts go ahead are you still pro the policy?

I would be surprised if a KC said that without any qualification (eg we would expect children with significant SEN to have an EHCP), and even more surprised if it was said by client instruction rather than being a mis-statement.

Then you would be even more surprised at some of the other things that have been said.
I presume you aren't live steaming so don't tell me I am making this up or tell me I haven't just heard what I've heard!

As stated on a number of these threads, I am voted for a change in government, I am vaguely pro the policy, as well as being a private school parent. That doesn't change with amounts raised.

I appreciate that most on the thread have a different position ideologically, and I am happy to agree to differ on that rather than debate it.

I enquired about the transcript, because I am conscious from my past history with your posts that you and I disagree on interpretation a fair bit.

As there isn't one, I will leave it there.

Zero qualification on SEN argument

The role of the KCs is to find evidence to support Labour's narrative. They havealready been cautioned by judge to stick to facts rather than opinion (re: tax breaks).
Court documents reveal:

• Ministers ignored warnings from officials & the DfE
• Rushed rollout left schools scrambling to prepare
• 100 extra school closures expected over what was initially outlined —Labour KNEW this in advance and have gone in public saying they don't believe ANY will close as a result of this policy. That is intentionally lying.

We are just about to have no skin in the game as we are moving out DC to state 6th form and they want to move.

However, what a stupid bunch of idiots. Won’t this now be a precedent? Local state can’t accommodate another SEN and it’s cheaper and less hassle to pay the VAT.

I’d be banging this drum if I was struggling to pay the VAT and my DC would need SEN provision.

It’s a stupid tax. I thought it would’ve been easy to throw out not just for SEN reasons, but also due to EU rules against taxing education which we all seem to follow.

From your response you sound fairly loyal to Labour even if it ends in state sector cuts.

Happily I think others won’t be so generous with the party. Already disapproval is incredibly high.

Maybe it’ll be reversed in a few years, tg.

The general public were misled by Labour in the manifesto and promised 6500 teachers, breakfast clubs and what have you from the private school VAT bonanza. They certainly did not vote for the top 20 public schools to cash in net net on VAT and the Treasury to owe them millions in VAT payments for capex projects, whilst they are also up on prepayments invested on behalf of their parent groups, whilst at the same time small private schools catering to SEND children are going bust, en masse. That is not what anyone voted for. So if that is the reality on the ground, how are they going to fudge this one? Given they cannot even fudge it in court with 4 KC to hand and a Prime Minister who knows HR legislation inside out.
So how exactly are they going to lie their way out of this bonanza?

Mumble mumble Tax Breaks mumble mumble Subsidies mumble mumble Sharp Elbows mumble mumble Don't Accept mumble mumble Free Breakfasts mumble mumble Free nursery places mumble mumble.....

Is probably how they will get out of any of it! That's been their playbook to date

Same as everything else, blame someone else.

Luckily many do see through it, going by ratings.