Private, Grammer or Local School

[bluegoosie]

My cousin's DS is about to enter the wonderful world of year 6 soon. They live in an area with lots of choice but no choice is standing out to them so I thought I'd ask for some advice I can feedback to her.

I have no idea what to advise, their situation is beyond my limited experience and imagination. I am also biased in my views in terms of education being a generally high minded lefty academic living in an ivory tower.

Cousin's DS is relatively high achieving child. School predicts he will get ~110 in Reading Writing and Maths Sats. Solid top 20% but not quite top 10%.

Music grade 4 in violin, grade 3 piano, relatively good progress as only started 2 years ago. Not that big into sports, plays football once per week.

They can chose:

Catchment area school - relatively okay academy, attainment is average and progress score is slightly higher than average 0.6 but does not have a sixth form, 10 minutes walk from the house. She can just do the schools application form when the times comes and don't need to go through any other hoops.

Try for the grammar school - its ~40 minutes away by bus but they are in the postcode catchment area. Hugely competitive something like 1,400 to 2,000 candidates for 180 places. Two stages of exams. Sounds crazy to me but I'm probably out of touch.

The acceptance rate is <9% and DS is currently out of the top 10% of all kids nationwide (according to the assessment his school did), not sure how viable this option is. He's had some tutoring for the 11+, he is still about 10-15% below par, according to his tutor, for the pass mark for stage 1. They haven't started stage 2 papers yet.

Private school - this is the point I wanted to ask the most: the local private school charges £27000 per year or £2230/month in fees (I'm guessing this is average now). Cousin is confident DS can pass the entrance exam, I am told it is not as hard as the grammar school. Cousin also seems to think its going to be easy because private school applications will be low next academic year (not sure how true this is). She's hoping for a bursary and/or music award but their household combined earnings are 140K. They have another kid who would need to go the year after - so they will be playing 2 sets of fees for at least 5-7 years. I know bursaries are means tested and depended on your outgoings as well as your earnings but what are the chances of them getting a bursary?

Public school - Cousin then said in for a penny in for a pound and started looking at public schools. As DS is in a state school she's looking at scholarships and bursaries specific for for state school pupils to attend public school (Eton apparently has one bursary scheme, Christ's Hospital gives out a lot of bursaries too). I am worried they will not fit in, get bullied or become really disillusioned with their semi-detatched house and middle class parents. Of course I may be completely wrong and they might thrive there.

Which do you think is the best option(s) to pursue? Cousin says she wants to decide on a specific path to concentrate on and I have no idea.

Can they afford private school without a bursary?Sounds like they need to see what they can get and then decide when they know what their options are. Apply for the grammar, see if they get a place, apply for private school and see if they get busaries/scholarships and their DS gets in, apply for the catchment area school just in case.

Thanks for the advice: they can afford full private school fees for one kid, two kids they will definitely be needing at least one bursary.

Is it usual to apply to 6-7 different schools and do maybe 6-7 different exams? I assume some people do but how do you juggle that with both parents working?

In her shoes i probably wouldn't go Private, even though my DC did.
State school sounds fine and Grammar could be an option too.
Doesn't sound like the Private schools are affordable or necessary

What does the DC want to do?

Seems like they have many options they can go for.

Like previous poster advises apply for them all and keep options open.

My DC and all his friends did really well in state schools but if you have options keeping an open mind is the best advice.

Only apply for the ones that are realistic. It sounds like Eton may not be, other schools they’re interested in may not offer high enough bursaries or they may not qualify depending on income.

Also what schools would suit their DS instead of just blindly applying because it’s a good school.

They will also need to take into account additional cost ms like school uniform and trips, extra curriculars, fee increases.

No chance she would get a bursary on that household income. Since the introduction of VAT, the number of bursaries awarded has also dropped. He would need to be exceptional, either academically, musically or in a sport, to have any chance at a scholarship which might come with a slight reduction in fees.

If he’s top 20% he’s unlikely to get a place at the grammar. Anecdotally, they have become increasingly difficult to get into.

Her most realistic/only option seems like the local comp. Which sounds fine, and he would have local friends.

I would just go with the local state school. It sounds perfectly okay. He could try for the grammar but it doesn’t sound like he is very likely to get in. And it doesn’t sound like private school is an option financially when there is the younger child to also be considered in a couple of years.

That household income would not qualify for a bursary.

Thanks everyone, Cousin doing this for the first time so good to have realistic expectations. Local school sounds like best fit, and will also save them a lot of money and stress.

Cousin's DC is quite enamoured with private/public schools. I completely understand, everything about these schools is so polished and well presented. They really are good at marketing.

I do want to ask any private school parents: what are the main reasons you chose private school? and do you think its still worth it in the current climate?

do want to ask any private school parents: what are the main reasons you chose private school? and do you think its still worth it in the current climate?

Answer= poor outcomes at local state secondary but then also a huge difference in class sizes, arts/music/drama/sports facilities, range of extra curricular activities etc. Finally we wanted an environment where it is cool to do well and achieving academically is celebrated.

For Yr 7-11 I still believe it is worth it but with VAT we now can't afford 6th form so she will go state which is sad because they don't offer the subjects she wants so she will have to do 2nd choice subjects which then may impact her next steps.

I wouldn't do Public school with a semi and MC parents; it is possible and unlikely to be bullied but still a risk of feeling inadequate (esp as he is a boy and they are all comparing themselves/ego, etc). Not fun to be the only one without stables or a helicopter...

I would do the 11+ (keep tutoring as he is not academically bright enough without it) and apply for a private that gets similar or better results. I don't think they would offer a bursary in his situation though - many are cutting back and supporting parents currently with high flying DC in schools who have been hit by the VAT. I don't think £140k pa would allow a bursary for many schools? Hedge bets between these two I would say.

@bluegoosie massive difference between public schools and independent schools. The public schools make up approx 1% of independent schools but are massively wealthy and attract parents who can afford high fees without batting an eye.
Most independent schools are smaller, local and have cohorts of more 'average' incomes

My sister sends her dd privately but not to Public - despite there being a closer option of a Public school, as I said in my previous post, the social divide would have been too much.

The private school she attends is similar in price but has a more normal range of families attending. It is around the top 100 in league tables, which is higher than any of the grammars in their area by a very long shot. She liked the fact girls keep up with sports and get very high marks in STEM which doesn't happen in mixed state schools (see report published last week). The kids at private schools are allowed to be kids for longer and value education, which means less bad behaviour and more room for aspiration.

Not fun to be the only one without stables or a helicopter...

Do you really think everyone who goes to public schools has parents with a helicopter and stables. How ridiculous.
Both my dc went to public schools and we have neither stables nor a helicopter - in fact I don’t know anyone with a helicopter.

I actually said that because it actually was something remarked on by a child we know at this Public school. I wouldn't have mentioned it otherwise!
Yes there are some kids with yachts at the private school, but it is a vastly different league to the school where global minor royals go.

‘She’s hoping for a bursary…’.

With fees going up, there’ll be alot more demand for these, so although the amount of full-paying people may go down, those parents who may just have scraped together the fees, may need bursaries etc nowadays.

i think go local or grammar.

Wow, Cousin and I had no idea public schools were so different from the local private school. As an extended family we don't know anyone with public school kids. So if there are any public school parents or people who know kids in public schools, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

We were looking at public school fees and they cost like 1.5x - 2x more but they are also boarding schools so maybe price is justified? They seem well endowed to make bursaries and scholarships especially Christ's Hospital who give 77% of their students some level of bursary support (DC loves their uniform but I'm not sure about those yellow socks?!). He's also looking at Harrow.

It's not clear to us how competitive it is to get into these schools, we assume it's competitive but maybe not grammar school competitive. For Tiffin we have a rough idea of the acceptance rate and how hard the tests are. Public school example text papers (maths especially) look easier - but they are probably selecting for other less tangible things. The other thing is private schools don't have progress 8 scores, so its hard compare them objectively to the local state/grammar. My concern is him actually being able to get a place, and fitting in socially. He's happy outgoing and confident but he's only ever been in his small local state school, which is very nurturing.

Grammar school may not be a real option (to put things into perspective it's Tiffin Boys, their postcode is priority area). I think even if we tutored him hard enough to get him passed the mark he might not be able to keep up later on.

Don’t put a child that young through entrance exams especially multiple, it’s cruel to give them that sense of responsibility for their own future at such a young age. They have enough of that to come. Wouldn’t worry about school not having a sixth form - all his friends will be in the same boat so will likely end up all picking the same college or other sixth form anyway. He might even want a clean break by then and try somewhere completely new.

Thanks all, in the end Cousin's DS is going to keep up with the grammar school prep and try to for the grammar, the local private and Christ's Hospital.

I think 3 exams is an okay middle ground as DC is already been working towards the grammar school exam. However DC is saying how his friends are all trying out for 6-8 selective schools, he wants to as well...😣

Never realised how competitive and how much peer pressure there can be even in Year 5 in certain schools. This process really opened my eyes. Totally difference from my experience at 10 years old, when I was spending my time falling out of trees and climbing out of ditches.

OK the only option your cousin is not exploring is state boarding. It is cheaper than that private local school (about half the price) and there are grammar options there too. See eg Cranbrook School or Reading School. You have not told us the area you are in, but for MC parents with a bright child that can be a good option. I am only suggesting that as you put the concept of public school out there. Some state boarding schools do allow Year 9 entry. Personally, I would worry about boarding at 11, but it is an option for some kids/parents.

Some of the private schools won’t offer bursaries on that income level, but may well offer academic and music scholarships and a percentage of fees off. Up to 50% in this climate, in some select schools for a kid with that profile. Although the kids we know in London who got music scholarships this year were all Grade 8 on at least one instrument (I am not joking!)

Just curious why is your cousins DC looking at these public schools?

They are incredibly selective and based on what you have explained they may not pass the entrance exams and whilst everyone states on this forum that bursary are separate to scholarships or any other advantage they really aren’t.

Unless DC has something very exceptional to offer these top public DC would unlikely secure a place or a bursary.

I am not trying to be unkind but I think your cousin needs to reduce DCs hopes that they could go to Harrow/Eton etc. it would be a mistake without a hefty amount of realism.

In terms of comments that they are full of super rich this true to an extent however the majority will are from top 5 -10% of earners etc.

The fees are eye watering - my DC is in their 3rd year of a top public school - they are now £53k a year including VAT and will go up from August this year by 3 - 5 % which we can fortunately absorb and we will only have 6th form left to pay for.

Hope this is helpful.

I think it's partially social influence. DC has two friends who are preparing for public school entrance exams - they are going for academic scholarships and music scholarships. Their parents have given up on the grammar exam all together and are putting all their efforts into this. They have told my Cousin that they have a better chance of getting their kids into the public schools than they do of getting them into the local grammar school. I have no idea why they think this but they are now wholly dedicated to getting their kids into these schools. One of them is applying for 4 different public schools.

I'm not sure about these parent's background but I do know tha they live down the road from my cousin and all the houses in that area are basically the same. I don't know if they have grandparents willing to contribute the school fees, or have some other sources of income. They do seem to be very keen to get those scholarships/bursaries.

I think Cousin and DC now have the impression that it's within the realme of possibility. Once in a blue moon a kid from their primary school does get a scholarship to a public school like Harrow. I think the last one was 5-6 years ago.

I think their impression was that public school is like a more expensive boarding version of their local private school.

I mostly just don't want DC to spend so much of his life prepping for tests and then be really disappointed.

Personally I think instead of looking at all these schools, cousin and DC are better off brushing up on his primary school academics and then getting to know parents/kids at the local academy so he's better prepared to start there in Year 7.

The best option for public schools is look at their website and bursary guidelines. London or those named boarding public schools have high expectations, music at grade 8 on 2 instruments and most DC in Royal College of Music Sat Junior programme. Sports at very high level with fixtures at county or regional tournaments. It is not always an easy option for entry and Tiffin level is about the same and not all parents living some Downton Abbey lifestyle. Uniforms tend to minimise designer kits. Most DC apply to 5 or 6 schools for entry.

He sounds really bright and it’s amazing to already be doing Grade 4 on an instrument! He may qualify for music scholarships.

I would keep all options option, go to the open days and try for 6 of the favourite schools.
Then decide once the offers are on the table.

I wouldn’t just stick to the local average state as he sounds like a high achiever. He will be happier in a more academic and nurturing environment in a smaller school/class.

Christ's Hospital probably will be a good fit.