private schools near me have reduced their bursary offers??

[Mizmumy]

Hi, very long time lurker- made a post to ask......as not sure I can see anything related to this.

My twins are in year 6. They are both really sporty and doing well academically. They are at the local primary and we applied for the local school. No issue with the school, but we thought to try our luck with a bursary for them both. We live in Surrey, and there are actually more private schools near us than state.

We have applied for the kids to a few different schools but have been refused for nearly all the applications. The bursars have all told us the schools have significantly reduced their bursary student offers for next year. I have friends who work in 2 of these schools and they shared that no bursaries were offered. We were not expecting 100% bursaries, looking at maybe a 10-20% reduction in fees.

Has anyone else come across this? Thanks for your answers if you have any?

@Barbadossunset I've mentioned several times throughout the thread different ways in which the schools I know of have been divided based on income and class.

Those who have money versus those that don't. Those who can afford school trips versus those that can't. Then those who have a different class background just have access to things those on bursaries don't and those opportunities are shared within those groups. That might be trips to family homes, access to work experience within certain businesses, attending certain events.

Thank RR and KS for that OP.

@CillaDog you literally said students were from more modest backgrounds (dentists/doctors)

anyways, your worldview is weird and not very coherent. Upper middle class is not the same category as upper class, whereas the distinction between middle and upper middle is pretty subjective. At any rate, you are making some pretty sweeping statements about private schools based on limited (not first hand I am guessing) experience with a handful of schools. Private schools are diverse, as are the people using them, but you don’t seem to be interested in anything that contradicts your preconceived notions of the sector.

This post is quite revealing of your naïveté and reliance on stereotypes rather than real experience.

CillaDog
Thank you for answering my question.
My son was at Eton and this certainly wasn’t his experience. As in all boarding schools, the students live in close quarters and friendships are formed on personalities not income.
Information as to who was on bursaries wasn’t made public.

Are there class and income hierarchies in state schools?

@Labraradabrador your reading comprehension is not very good, I said some student were from more modest backgrounds such as dentist and doctors (which yes are not high earners) compared to other students I knew, not compared to tradies.

I'm well aware upper middle and upper are different. You of course get a mix of both at private. My comments are based on 18 years as a student in private school, all my siblings attended different private schools, as did my parents. Most people within those schools are upper middle or upper class and will not struggle with the VAT.

I can only share my experiences of school and the people I know? I can't say that I know several taxi drivers sent their children to my school, they didn't. We had children of politicians, diplomats, and a few minor celebrity children. There were a number of bursary students and RAF children. They were in their own distinct groups from other students as they couldn't "keep up" with the average student body.

It's all besides the point, the fact is none of the majority of attendees did not need bursaries. They can afford the increase.

I'm glad your son had a better experience. A boy I dated was a student at Scholarship student Eton and suffered horrendous bullying. Just constant comments, being left out, sometimes physical. He never said much about it as he was hugely grateful for the learning opportunity.

This was some 20+ years ago, so I would hope things have changed!

Well in one of our local state secondaries there are the kids whose parents could afford the £3k ski trip to Canada over half term. And there’s those that couldn’t.

I suspect in many state schools the class and financial hierarchies are much more pronounced than in independent schools. £2m house + Canada ski trip vs social housing and FSM.

Of course many people understandably see the diversity of the pupils in state schools as a good thing, not sure though how much it helps @CillaDog and her arguments about class/financial division in private school. 🤷‍♀️

@CillaDog i suggest you reread your own posts before commenting on someone else’s reading comprehension

@ICouldBeVioletSky think that's the point I've been trying to make, whilst there are undoubtedly people from more modest backgrounds in private school, most are well off.

In state schools you're getting much more diversity of class and income. They're definitely more noticeable too as you've said. Those who can afford ski trips versus FSM.

I don't think anything I've said is outrageous. Quite simply most people in private schools are middle or upper class. They're financially far better off. They can absorb these price changes or lack of bursaries. That's my experience.

@CillaDog you seem to be conflating a couple of not entirely consistent points. I was responding to this one:

“I've mentioned several times throughout the thread different ways in which the [private] schools I know of have been divided based on income and class.
Those who have money versus those that don't. Those who can afford school trips versus those that can't. Then those who have a different class background just have access to things those on bursaries don't and those opportunities are shared within those groups. That might be trips to family homes, access to work experience within certain businesses, attending certain events.”

All this is more true of many state schools.

There were a number of bursary students and RAF children. They were in their own distinct groups from other students as they couldn't "keep up" with the average student body.
@CillaDog

I’m surprised it was known which students had bursaries as such information is not usually made available.

@ICouldBeVioletSky

I don't know if you're misunderstanding what I've said, but I said that it is a class split in regard to who is attending private schools. So the majority of students are middle or upper class. Very few working class students are getting the opportunity to attend Eton, Harrow, Welly etc. I feel people are implying that private schools are hugely diverse, and you have vast differences in income and class. Even in those cases of those that are from low income or working class backgrounds, they are not getting the same experience as someone from a higher income family, and they certainly don't get the same experience as an upper class student.

I certainly did not say these divides don't exist within state schools, rather that they do still exist in private schools, despite in my opinion everyone seemingly being from a similar background.

I also don't believe it's genuine to sit here and say that most people that attend these schools are from a financial background that would struggle. Which I think the implication on this thread has been that most the pupils are middle class and the bursary loss or VAT is having significant impact on them, but most will stay in the school very few will forcibly drop out. It is the low income, working class families who rely on majority funding who will leave. So it is again a class divide. We can all name people anecdotally who attend local privates who aren't "well off" but they are the minority of attendees.

Of course the differences in class and income are 1000 times more stark within a state school. In my opinion that's not a bad thing. I think people should mix with all backgrounds.

To be brutally honest but it's often fairly obvious, or was within our school

• those who couldn't afford the extra curricular activities
• they didn't have new uniform each year (shirts for example)
• maybe not having the right clothes on mufti days
• not getting a car/money for passing exams
• not attending certain restaurants, where you holidayed, whether you ski in the winter season
• those who did work experience in a local firm for year 10 versus those who did it with the BBC or in the city
• what phone you had

Plus students talk!

@CillaDog i think your experience is out of date and based on what sounds like a particularly class-conscious school. Schools with generous bursary pots absolutely do have kids on genuinely low incomes (by which I mean benefit-dependent level) receiving 100% bursaries. And they will often also get help with trips, uniform, clubs etc so that they can participate more easily in school life. And they are not poor-cousin social pariahs!

Oh I don't doubt that. I'm glad to hear that's the case that it's changed.

I will say I do think it marred by the area I lived in, with such a high concentration of private schools, it's not so much oh you go to an independent or you don't, but where you go and what you have matters. House size, cars, postcode all factored into social circles. I suppose when everyone is attending private schools it does have to be a competition on everything else.

My mother was bought up incredibly well off, but is the least snobby/materialistic person I know. She was shunned by other mums because she didn't like parading expensive handbags around for lunches and chose to volunteer on her afternoons instead with dementia patients.

@CillaDog all students at my school get the same experience in school. Differences that exist outside of school would be present if they went to state or private - in a state school the multimillionaire child is not getting the same experience as a child on benefits. You are attributing things to school that have nothing to do with school - they are a reflection of differences in class and wealth (which are different differences btw, as you seem to consistently confuse class and wealth)

As for impact of labour policies, it will be much broader than just those individual families that cannot afford the difference. It will vary by school, but many many private schools aren’t running a big surplus so even 10% drop in enrolment can be the difference between continuing and closing. We are seeing 3x normal increase in school closures since Jan, and likely to accelerate in next 6 months as the fallout becomes clear. That’s a lot of disruption and very little tax take.

bringing it back to the op’s topic - very few schools can continue bursaries at similar levels as before as many are in very precarious positions financially.

You clearly went to one of the more prestigious private schools, probably in the SE. The vast majority of private schools in the country are not like this

🤣

Honestly yeah, I’d be ok with a limit on PRR for high value homes.

And yes, I’d be ok with increased general taxation to fund education.

I’m also ok with VAT on luxuries. Including private education

Exactly.

@CillaDog all the stuff you list doesn't matter.
It's also quite school child level.

Schools are better at dealing with bursaries. It's a shame Labour's policy will change the outcomes for some dc.

If Eton make a surplus as a result of VAT, why is that a bad thing? Then they can go ahead with the state schools they were planning on opening in the Midlands etc that Labour tried to obstruct and they can carry on with lots of bursaries and summer schools. At least it stays in the hand of education rather than being fluffed up the wall by some pointless other Labour ideology.

Incidentally, a number of parents with highly achieving kids at orchestra today were saying they are going to do state years 7-9 and have deferred their private school place to year 9. That way they save the cost of VAT and some. Not sure the Government calculated that one! And if it is significant numbers the impact on state school funding.

@Araminta1003 Some schools barely have any intake at y9. There are schools with only an intake in y9, eg Eton, but many simply could not defer y7 starters to y9 without making a considerable loss. Boys boarding and mixed coed boarding is typically a y9 start, but girls boarding is typically y7. I cannot imagine why schools would allow deferrals if they can fill their places and most have y9 entrance exams. They want to see what dc can do all over again in competition with other y9 entrants. I think that’s very risky.

I would also suggests most private schools are in the SW or SE and London. Fewer further north you go. Who goes to them very much depends on how prestigious the school is and whether it’s boarding or day.