private schools near me have reduced their bursary offers??

[Mizmumy]

Hi, very long time lurker- made a post to ask......as not sure I can see anything related to this.

My twins are in year 6. They are both really sporty and doing well academically. They are at the local primary and we applied for the local school. No issue with the school, but we thought to try our luck with a bursary for them both. We live in Surrey, and there are actually more private schools near us than state.

We have applied for the kids to a few different schools but have been refused for nearly all the applications. The bursars have all told us the schools have significantly reduced their bursary student offers for next year. I have friends who work in 2 of these schools and they shared that no bursaries were offered. We were not expecting 100% bursaries, looking at maybe a 10-20% reduction in fees.

Has anyone else come across this? Thanks for your answers if you have any?

And we really cannot talk about private schools being used solely by certain classes. I am in London and most of our local private schools - the demographic is very much successful Asian immigrants who value education above all else. To think targeting them won’t have any real impact on tax take is incredibly naive, at best. There are also a lot of working class business owners there who feel targeted as well. I would say most of the middle class British folk are using the best state schools, at least where I live. They understand the system and moved into the best catchments, having the confidence to know that they can top up themselves, should the need arise.

"You are basically stating that educating some children is a service and making an ideological decision based on what forms of education are exempt and what forms are not."

No. By choosing to use private education a parent is deciding that education is a service by which if you pay more you should get more.

Most people are saying if you want that sort of society then you need to pay the full amount, no exemptions or benefits.

The VAT exemption being removed just means many people who have been paying for this education will now need to pay more, having had the benefit removed.

No, what is disingenuous is to suggest that independent schools have until recently benefited from a VAT “exemption”.

There was and has never been any exemption.

VAT has never previously been added to education.

Of course, if think education is a service then nurseries and universities should also be subject to VAT. Would you agree with that?

Or if you think rich, privileged people should pay an additional state school tax on then shouldn’t those on 6 figure salaries living in £1m-£2m homes and actually using state schools also be asked to chip in? Or is that sort of privilege OK with you?

Yes the child free people are already contributing to state schools through general taxes, as are indy school parents! Shouldn’t we ask child free people to pay an extra tax for state schools, just like Indy parents are? Why not?

As I say, I pose these questions often but never get a proper answer.

Education has always had an exemption. Removing the exemption in this way is not only uneven (tutoring, FE, other kinds of education like dance or performance or music education, universities, preschools etc. aren’t paying it); but it’s also an agreed exemption across the globe, so the U.K. is alone in removing an exemption for education. Which couldn’t be done in the EU, for example.

We could slap VAT on books or children’s clothes and say it’s the removal of an exemption, but would that make it right and okay? Books are disproportionately bought by the more wealthy and privileged in society - why not add VAT on those? Because there are abstract and principled reasons for the exemption. Same with education.

If posters want a tax on wealth, why not tax wealth? Instead of taxing children’s education as some kind of pretend proxy for wealth?

@CillaDog you say it’s all about class and the education system. Well, the VAT policy is likely to be massively counterproductive, only serving to entrench the divide between state and private schools in class terms, and putting more pressure on state education. That’s why many of us are opposed to it. It’s not because we love class privilege: it’s because the policy is actually a really bad, poorly thought out and poorly costed policy, that will do the exact opposite of improving the state sector. So why are you so supportive of it? It looks set to do the very opposite of what you say you want.

On this logic, do you support adding VAT to books? Exactly the same rationale.

Maybe it is because it is a small independent, but our school is quite middle class, but very welcoming. Noone has swimming pools and if anyone is mega wealthy, they hide it well.

The parents are mostly dentists, doctors, that kind of thing. Plenty of tradesmen. Parties mostly whole class affairs.

I think it might be your area, but I have friends in other places with dc at schools like ours. Very few private schools are like Eton etc. Many cater for a range of students and have fees which two professional wages can cover. Well, could.

It is schools like these most in danger. Not those catering for the upper classes. They will be grand.

We have many friends who earn over £150k household salary, live in £1m+ houses in the catchments for the best state schools and take multiple luxury holidays a year, and have their kids in outstanding state schools. We could not afford these things any more than we could fly to the moon. DD has a bursary at a private school. Why are we somehow the targets of your class envy, @CillaDog ? Houses in the catchments of the outstanding state schools cost easily £1m+ in our area, so why as a pp has suggested aren’t those parents being targeted with extra taxes? That kind of property value dwarfs even the fees at a mid-range private school and yet that is seen as somehow morally good as they are using state education (when actually they could afford to pay for private, so are taking up places poorer kids then can’t have)?

For the last 4 years the most my child could could have had in bursaries was 20% - half for academic and half for being a national level athlete, travelling worldwide for their sport

VAT made no differences - low bursary offers here.

I suspect the next year or so will be the worst for "new" bursaries as I'd hope that the schools will prioritise bursaries for students part way through GCSEs or A-Levels and existing students they want to keep (eg high performing Y9/Y11 reducing the pot for "new" bursaries. 2-3 years will be the new normal level at a guess.

@pleasedonotfeedme - if you are in a sought after state secondary catchment you are laughing all the way home because this policy likely means you can bank another 10 per cent value on your house, sell up and keep that extra cash tax free! So most likely a lot of people in favour of this policy are exactly in that position. Not least because it reduces perceived competition from private school parents for their own DC. As many Labour Party members have done just that since it became a no-no to send their DC to private schools, it somewhat stinks.

Exactly this. Our school has said they do not think they can justify new bursaries when it's a small independent of only 600 pupils and they have families who have been there for years giving notice because of VAT.

It's very sad. But totally forseeable and predicted by at least a kazillion threads on MN alone.

A significant portion of vehicles at drop off are trade vans, and about 20% of tradesmen we have had at our house have been alums of dc’s indie. I myself was raised in care and deep poverty and yet have never felt out of place with other parents. Parents routinely speak openly about the financial sacrifices that come with funding a private education, and most of us don’t have particularly fancy holidays or particularly fancy houses.

it sounds like all of your views around private schooling are based on one not very pleasant sounding school (or rumours you have heard about that school).

Independent schools are making redundancies and other cost saving measures (including reduction of bursaries) to avoid closure. Not just VAT but NI, NMW and business rates. Schools are also prioritising keeping students at school so they can complete their studies rather than adding new bursary commitments to the roll.

If you only need 5-10% most schools will offer a sibling discount. And since admission numbers are falling it's worth asking. Depends if the school is a wealthy one or now.

Gosh, that's a relief. I wouldn't want the toffs to suffer.

yes exactly this. I have said this before but was told I was talking rubbish, but one of the father's in DS1's class is a taxi driver. The profile of parents we have include builders, a husband and wife electrician team; manager of a coffee shop (her DD has a bursary); GPs; my DH is now retired but he used to be an accountant in a high street accountancy firm, I was a middle manager in a charity.*

ETA- I then retrained aged 40 into a regulated profession assuming I would earn more 'eventually' but in reality never did.

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Except my point was the opposite. The major public schools do not just see their role as educating rich and privileged, but contributing to Education, including state education, more widely and that includes limiting the Labour dogma. So if they think this is going to stop the interference and aim to raise standards for all, including the very poorest, that is not going to happen. They will carry on interfering and I guess the posh/very rich attending these schools will just pay up as they see a Labour Government as a temporary necessary evil. Not like they did not get screwed by them in the past.

The VAT imposition is also the opposite of a progressive tax, as the family only just affording full fees will pay exactly the same amount of tax as the billionaire family. Far fairer to increase income tax across the board.

As others have said, I have never heard a private school parent argue with @CillaDog 's assertion that all state schools should achieve a decent baseline minimum, or argue that they shouldn't contribute towards that via general taxation.

@Labraradabrador whilst your experience may be that a "significant" number of trade vans may be at drop off, all traders I know clear six figures a year so that's hardly surprising.

My experience is across a number of private schools, where yes a proportion of students were from more modest backgrounds (dentists/doctors) most were significantly well off living in multimillion pound homes. One group of family friends in my brother's age group, all their children did independents and then went on to do American universities costing their parents upwards of £250,000 for their bachelors. So whilst your anecdotal evidence is "average" incomes, I suppose mine is very different.

As I have said this may be location based as I was in the SE at the time, so many people went independent and there was a lot of competition between the independents as to which was better (see more academic/wealthier/more prestigious).

@CillaDog it is hardly surprising that people in private schools are wealthier than average, but your earlier point was about class. Your argumentation isn’t even coherent when you seemingly consider dentists/doctors more ‘modest’ in background than tradesmen.

unless you're earning well in excess of £125,000 a year (in which case school fees should be no problem

125k a year is 75k after tax. Private secondary fees in London for two kids are 60k a year, add to this uniform, clubs, school bus etc and at a minimum you need 75k.
So on 125k realistically a household can only afford one child in private school.

If you have no money or low income, you could potentially be fully funded to Eton/Harrow etc, but both opportunities are far and few between, and even these school have their class and financial hierarchies.
@CillaDog

What are these class and financial hierarchies at Eton & Harrow?

@Labraradabrador did I say I consider doctors/dentists more modest? I said I know trades who make six figures. I would consider them on par with each other generally.

But going back to class, at no school I've experienced would someone whose parents were "middle" class and using bursary, be in the in crowd. This usually (again MY EXPERIENCE) is the upper middle/upper class families. Diplomats, politicians, family money but several generations of business ownership versus someone whose parents are both high earning doctors for example.

The key in what I said was well in excess. But yea if you're a single income house of £125,000 in London, you may struggle. That doesn't mean you're not excessively in advantage compared to others, it's just that you can't afford the cost within the south.