To think a lot of people who agree with VAT on school fees…

[geeenuoe]

Actually don’t truly understand that to most sending their kids to these schools, it is a massive, massive struggle already.

There seems to be a mentality that if you can afford 20k a year then you’re already comfortable so sod it, you should find more cash now for vat … but do people in general not understand that some families re mortgage their homes to pay these fees? Yes there’s mega wealthy people but there’s many, many more who are not.

On the one hand we hear a good education is a luxury so VAT must be applied, then on the other we are told a good education is a right for all. So… why are we taking away that good education from those who already have it? Why is the focus not on sorting out the state sector properly? We all know the vat won’t fix the state sector. It may help in a tiny way in ad hoc circumstances but there’s so so so much more that needs to be done to state schools to make them ever match what the private sector offers.

I simply don’t get this mentality that those making sacrifices must make more when it comes to bloody education. I say this as someone who can’t afford the fees but if I could I absolutely would… and I also acknowledge that I am unwilling to go to some lengths that others will to pay it. I respect the choice of others to make such sacrifices and have no desire to make it harder and more inaccessible for the masses to access it. Similarly, I know plenty of people driving fancy cars and spending loads on holidays… they’ve chosen that over school fees. And those who have spend loads getting into a postcode of a decent state school… should they be paying enhanced tax on their house purchase?

Why do most people think those who pay schools fees are doing so with great ease? Is it basically because they don’t personally know people paying this so accept the media narrative that it’s the mega rich only?

in 2018 there was 731,213 live births in the UK, in 2021 (so next years reception cohort) there was 694,685 - and then the numbers for the last two years have been lower again. (For comparison- 2010 which is current year 10 or 9 depending on when in the year had 807k births.)

Given on average 7% of children are privately educated, if all 50,000 or so of next years cohort don’t go private, state schools that managed to accommodate 93% of the 2010 cohort can cope with that.

and surely private schools won’t keep paying teachers if they don’t have students? Some private school teachers will leave the profession rather than teach in a state school, but most would just move back into state.

@garlicnaan you do realise that state schools can't just decide to get rid of 'tricky kids'...at those schools you know so well

I fucking love you

I can’t take this op seriously… everyone who criticises her view is envious or lacks ambition for their children or whatever. Comes across as entitled and up themselves. Again another reason why this policy is popular.

Ahh so there are excellent state schools.

What is fair is everybody paying the same. Why should private schools be VAT exempt, they're a business, play the same game as everybody else.

I should be able for my business to not pay
VAT because my only clients are wealthy.

I live that the tory supporters are now getting their comeuppance for keeping them in power for 14 years.

I get what you're saying, absolutely. From your personal perspective it's worth the money to ensure your children have the best possible environment for their education with other children that share your values. That's why I don't blame private school parents for their choices; as I said up-thread, they're doing the best for their children, which is their job. If you can buy advantage for your children, why wouldn't you?

But it's not what's best for society. It doesn't make the most of children with talent. Middle class parents produce middle class children. Too many parents (and therefore their children) don't value education or appreciate the way it opens up opportunities for children. This holds back society and the economy and ensures that wealth and privilege stays with the group of people that have them already, rather than allowing success to go to those that have talent. We should want better for all our children

I believe most teachers are great and doing their best but if state schools are perfectly equipped to manage all SEN, why ever increasingly numbers of children experiencing school avoidance and unable to attend? The EHCPs not being followed despite being legal documents (funding definitely an issue here)? The many children forced out of the standard state school system without a place to go to due to their SEN?

It's not just teaching that makes a school suitable or not. It's the environment. It's the other kids. It's the curriculum. It's the needs not met. I'm kind of surprised you need this explaining to you given you're a teacher.

Also as far as I'm aware there isn't even a non private diagnosis option for a number of SEN - dyslexia for example - so what do you expect parents to do?

I wasn't aware you could buy a diagnosis at all. My DC got most of theirs on the NHS.

A private school not far from me is choc full of children who couldn't cope in their state school.

If your desire is to have fairness with everyone paying the same then it’s hard to think of a less effective way of achieving that than this policy.

Your knowledge of the legal status and financial operation of private schools is also a somewhat confused.

Neither can many in private! We know many parents who do not go on holidays. We have just booked a last minute deal, which is our first holiday in 8 years.

They might not do it explicitly, but they can and I've seen it with my own eyes.

They can certainly choose to "let kids go", whereas other schools will do everything in their power to keep a child - especially a vulnerable one - if they think they might be moved from the school for any reason.

@Emptyandsad whilst I understand the theory, it’s frankly silly to think that people are going to put their children into social experiments to try and better other children’s aspirations. It just won’t happen on a wide scale, if at all. You see this with house prices for decent catchments - the context doesn’t matter, it is instinct to protect your child as far as possible. I’m not ashamed to say I want my child mixing with children who share the values I instil in her. It’s wildly unrealistic to suggest that parents are going to risk sacrificing their own child’s success in order to sort out another’s inadequate parenting.

To be fair - they can afford to go on a couple of holidays a year, they just chose to spend their money on something else.

Many of the people I know well who send their DC private don't pay for it themselves. It's grandparents, plus occasionally bursaries / scholarships.

I'm not sure the GPs would give them 40k a year to spank on holidays.

We absolutely need to better fund state education. That should be done through general taxation. Independent school parents already pay handsomely in taxes and would pay more through increased income tax. They also save the state all the money that would be spent on their children going to state school. Everyone should have a good education. Yet this tax will do fuck all to change anything for state schools, other than to put more children into an already struggling system.

@garlicnaan - what you are saying about state schools 'letting tricky children go' and keeping vulnerable children really doesn't make sense..in those schools you know so well and those situations you have seen with your own eyes ..

I'm done reading this thread. OP, your poor child having to endure £300 worth of tutoring a week. Poor kid.
Hopefully you'll consider selling your body to fund private school in the future. You'd do this if you cared enough about your DD's education of course.
Over and out.

I get that too. But as private schools get more expensive, fewer people will be able to afford them and those parents will send their children to state schools. Slowly (and I accept that it will be slow initially, the standards of state schools will rise and parents will be happier to send their children to them

Personally I would like to see private schools disappear. I think Britain would be a better place for it. But I accept that isn't legally or practically possible; so regulating demand through pricing may be the only route to making things more equal

Don't the children of wealthy parents have a great leg up already? Better housing, more space at home, a quite environment for study, encouragement from family and friends, resources like books and computers readily available, private tutors found when they struggle with a subject, holidays taken abroad, private tennis/hockey/rugby /cricket clubs...these aren't enough advantage? They also need to have smaller class sizes, better school facilties (libraries, sports grounds, language laboratories, exchange programmes, theatre trips, international visits etc). Don't get me wrong, I understand why you want it for your children. But is it fair?

We don't want 'fair' for our own children. We want the best we can possibly get for them. But government shouldn't be about entrenching privilege, it should be about giving equality of opportunity to all its citizens

It is so interesting that the demographic that is facing the VAT problem are taking it so personally. This is not about punishing private school parents, it's about making hard choices on how to repair our public services. All the state services we enjoy are paid for by taxes, there's no way of avoiding 'penalising hard working people'.

As one of those hardworking people, who has slogged my guts out to work full time while raising my kids alone (including adopting from the care system - how much money did that save the public purse) I was pretty pissed off when my child needed mental health services and couldn't get them. I was pissed off when the SEN support at her state school was slashed to the bare bones. I was pissed off that I had to become carer for my ex, who has young onset dementia, and that there was no support available for me or her.

I do truly feel sorry for any child who has their education derailed. But there is only one pot of money, and loads of unmet need that must take priority over those parents who can 'only' afford a couple of holidays a year.

You do see that, don't you OP? I'm not jealous of private school - one of my kids did well at state and is now at a good university, the other has needs that would never be tolerated at a private school. But I and millions of others have endured years in which our kids have done without in the name of balancing the nation's books. The poor have grown significantly poorer, and yes we need the wealthier to take a bit more of the strain. It's not punishment, it's priorities.

Plenty of independents are more like £12k though. Ours is, and we are doing it on a combined income in that range.

People on low incomes with no children pay for education but don't use it. We could all think of something our taxes pay for that we don't use. That's a bonkers argument. Taxes are paid for the government to distribute as it sees fit. No one can opt out because they don't use that service. Saying private school parents subsidise state schools is such a narrow argument as to be ludicrous.

This is very patronising. 'Some parents really care about their child's education' - so that's only people who can afford private? Those of us who send our kids to state don't care? And NO - state schools are not all appalling. It's the disparities amongst some state schools that is. Where I live they are all good, and believe it or not, I REALLY care about my child having a good education. It seems you hold a disgust towards state education, so snobbish in your attitude that no one can get a good state education. You clearly mix in some middle class bubble where you all convince eachother state school education is the spawn of the devil. Honestly people like you infuriate me. There's children being bombed on the news and you're worried about kids not having the luxury of private education even when we do have the choice of great state schools as an alternative.

Why aren't we enacting policies that grow the pot of money instead of insisting on moving money from one person to the next?

As previously posters have said, our tax take is very concentrated by international standards on a smaller base of high earners. I could triple my salary if I moved to the US. 10 years ago there was less of a discrepancy between UK and US salaries. I am more minded now to pop off to another country than I was 10 years ago, taking my taxes with me. The wealthier will not keep taking the strain indefinitely, given our ageing population and collapsing birth rate. They'll just do the sensible thing and leave.

We feel poor because our economy is not growing properly, not because private school parents don't pay VAT.

Um... That's because if you're a private school parent, you're choosing to spend money on school, not holidays.

Not because you're poor, or genuinely cannot afford a holiday.

If you're paying for private school, you have lots and lots of money - you have the absolute luxury to choose to spend it on whatever you like and you choose school. You made the choice not to have holidays for 8 years because you spent all your money on school. Can't you see how it's not the same thing?

One of the greatest ills in our society is the gulf between those who have and those who do not. It harms absolutely everyone, including the haves
https://equalitytrust.org.uk/impacts/. We live in a country where 4.3 million children are living in poverty UK Poverty 2024: The essential guide to understanding poverty in the UK | Joseph Rowntree Foundation (jrf.org.uk). It's really hard to care about the few haves who are faced with paying 20% on school fees when faced with these ugly and shameful facts, isn't it?

If parents are going to struggle with the 20% VAT, then their child may not going to benefit as much from a private education as they would a state one, as it could cause issues down the line for their children Private school education may damage students’ social and emotional development - News and events, University of York. You could say this new policy is actually going to do those kids a service. All that glitters isn't gold, OP.

@planAplanB I said 300 a month, not week. You’ve not responded to anything I asked you. Speaks volumes.