Cambridge University discriminates against children from private schools.

[Marchesman]

MN threads persist in claiming that Oxford and Cambridge Universities do not discriminate against private schools. Now two "academics" have written a half-baked book that argues for further reductions in the number of Oxbridge students from private schools (to 10% of the intake).

In 2023 at Cambridge 19.9% of students from comprehensive schools obtained first class degrees (23.5% from grammar schools) compared with 28.6% from private schools - evidence of unequivocal discrimination against the latter at the point of entry.

Cambridge's own analysis shows that British state-educated students already significantly underperform relative to foreign and privately educated British students. If more of the latter are excluded, the inevitable outcome will be that at these universities the best students are foreign, while the best British pupils decamp to US universities.

Is this really what the Left wants? If so why?

Yes, but it's a different skill to writing beautifully and descriptively. Both have their place

I've engaged with the arguments too but the op's writing style just comes across as hugely insecure. And given the topic, it's not unreasonable to point that out.

I didn't at any point say I worked in academia.

Indeed.

In the interests of simplicity….

This thread: rich posh privileged folk looking for ways to maintain their privilege.

I've engaged with the arguments too

Could you point me back to your posts where you've engaged with the published analysis the OP linked to, and countered the OP's inference with a well-backed argument?

I've gone back over the thread, and all I can see from you is some cursory conjecture - based on personal anecdotes - and snide put-downs.

I didn't at any point say I worked in academia

I didn't at any point say you did.
See how annoying snide, bad faith replies are?

I suppose if you don't bother thinking about what people have said, you could misrepresent it that way.

I think the OP has been clear and shared facts. The pendulum has swung so far as to over correct according to the most recent and granular data available.

If someone doesn’t like these facts, the best approach would be to mischaracterise the argument and then dismiss it.

He’s shared numbers, the evidence for which mysteriously vanishes when pressed, alongside another paper which does not provide sufficient evidence either way.

This sums it up perfectly.

I do sometimes idly wonder if my white, male child who is state educated will struggle to get jobs as firms try to improve diversity. This results in me telling him to work hard and prove himself. It doesn’t make me whinge and moan to strangers on the internet.

Luckily, the world is naturally diverse. Some people do think more deeply. Including about whether strategies and policies are working as expected, looking at numerical analysis rather than jumping to biased assumptions.

What if working hard isn't enough because he's judged by his sex, race or where he went to school?

I mean to be honest white males have the bulk of the privilege wherever they went to school, so...

Also life is what happens when you are making other plans - I ended up in top name places in the City from a comp and a red brick university due to quirks of life events. You never know where your child will end up! The world is even more uncertain these days. The old routes are breaking down

What has mysteriously vanished when pressed??

The 2019 Cambridge paper 'Analysis of student characteristics and attainment outcomes at the University of Cambridge' which OP linked to is still here:
https://www.cao.cam.ac.uk/admissions-research/app-research-papers-2020

The OP has been open from the start that more recent numbers came from FOI requests. I've accepted those figures in good faith (it would be an elaborate and easily disprovable lie to base a thread on!) but you can make your own FOI request if you are less trusting.

So what has mysteriously vanished??

Or is that accusation just another attempt to discredit the OP and minimise the insight she's sharing... ?

Half the old jobs will be gone in 5 years anyway AI will affect everything- I find it almost impossible to advise our kids these days - fuck knows! Be smart and agile I guess

And make time to do things you love - don't get too obsessed with 'the right career'

Pretty sure law will go AI soon anyway

Absolutely- 50% of what I did as a junior solicitor in 2002 is gone

There is more to worry about than poring over stats as to who is more likely to get into Oxbridge! Deckchairs and Titanic spring to mind!

@Ghilliegums that isn’t something that worries me. I just want him to be happy, which is perfectly possible without being the highest paid person in an organisation.

After my research efforts moved from clinical medicine to an esoteric humanities discipline, it took two, more or less complete, rewrites and three submissions to get my first paper in the field into a journal. In its first rejection a reviewer wrote: "I would recommend that the final version is to be checked by a native English speaker."

The fact that I kept his response for all of these years is an indication of how wounded I was by this. But I am happy to report that since then, no one has repeated his advice and my most recent effort (which is not short) was accepted by arguably the speciality's leading journal without a single word change - not one - from either the reviewers or the editor.

So, I'll stick with my present writing style if it's all the same to you.

edit: you not uou.

The inference being that the priorities of fee-paying parents are different.

Unless you are given to stating the obvious.

@Marchesman i was asked a question, which I answered.

The actual FOI requests on which this entire thread is based. It would be very straightforward to provide them. I don’t trust random figures posted by strangers which go against existing research.

“There is more to worry about than poring over stats as to who is more likely to get into Oxbridge! Deckchairs and Titanic spring to mind!“

@TheaBrandt - small boats and small planes… apparently the rich are leaving this beautiful grey island in small planes!

Social mobility is a tricky one - getting the balance right is difficult. However, I think whilst we have a genuine free market economy then whatever universities do is up to them and if they make bad choices, they pay via a fall in rankings/less high calibre graduates applying. Reputation will only take you so far. For Oxbridge, the general perception that it can’t buy you a job at the top anymore is a real issue.

If you attack the concept of an elite private school, then you have to follow through and attack the concept of an elite university, especially ones with a quasi monopoly like Oxford and Cambridge.
There is no point whatsoever going on about Etonians being MPs but being OK with half of them being Oxford graduates. Bubbles go in all directions. I think we need representatives who are very well educated but I think a mix of degrees from lots of different universities would be the way forward. I think humanities graduates need to be balanced out by science and tech graduates, especially given the direction the world is going. STEM degrees are massively underrepresented in Parliament and that could be an issue for us.
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/stem-mps-pmbs/

So I do understand @Marchesman’s passion for what they may have discovered, but I just think we have already moved on.

We will have moved on when people stop bitching about private school advantage, and Cambridge (and Oxford) sort themselves out.

For now, I would settle for the former.

Who is bitching though? I have not come across that in real life. For years there was a significant advantage for PS pupils I didn’t notice PS parents complaining then and the majority sucked it up. Is that what you would prefer - to go back to that? Surely it can’t be right that you can essentially buy your way into elite universities so they are the preserve of the wealthy? DH went to Cambridge in the late 90s the majority of the other students were from public schools and it was hard for him though he made lovely friends. Is that the status quo you would want resurrected - is that the end goal here?