Admissions criteria not followed - faith school appeal - who needs to provide evidence?

[MrsOB]

Hi

I've posted here previously and got great advice on appealing a place at the local Catholic school. We have our appeal set for a few weeks time and I wonder if I can trouble you all for advive again!!!

I strongly believe the admissions criteria was not followed at this school ... to cut a long story short a child was offered a place (sibling) who had not been baptised Catholic before the entry deadline. The child has only recently been baptised (in the last couple of weeks) . The parent already has a child at the school and is an active member of the PTA......

Becasue of the non-baptism. this child should have been in a category below my DS. My DS is now first on the waiting list, after a child who was above him was removed from the waiting list.

I have put all this information in a letter to the appeal panel but I'm just wondering if I will need to PROVE that this child was not baptised before the entry deadline. Is it up to me to provide the proof or will the panel members want to see proof from the school?

Also, in terms of waiting lists ..... if the panel find the school did not apply the correct procedure and my son was originally second on the waiting list does that mean he won't get a place anyway? Do I need to find out if the other child who was above him got a higher ranked school place?

Sorry for all the questions, I just want to make sure I go in there with everything I need - I don't think it's going to be easy!!!!

I'm not an expert on appeals, but one thing I'd check before you go much further is whether the sibling who got in ahead of your DS perhaps met a requirement for a different category - perhaps the child has a statement of special needs, for example.

A similar thing has happened in my DD2's class - a child appeared a week after the letters came out in March with school places with invitations to her baptism. She got a place on appeal. I couldn't believe the cheek of it myself!

Good luck with your appeal.

Hi,

Thanks for your comments. We have checked and there are no special needs issues. Also, they gave us a copy of their allocation of places, no places were given for special needs......

Will maybe try to get baptism record from the church.

C x

Although its unfair, I think you'll just have to hope someone else pulls out.

Was the child baptised before the place was offered? Because if he was he was probably was given the place legally.

I know this because a friend recently won an appeal. She moved into the area in May last year, after the deadline, and also after the initial allocation in April. She applied to 2 local (faith schools) - she met the faith criteria of both.

The closest one told her she was top of the list, but no further places came up as no one dropped out, so she didn't get a place.

The further away school was not in contact with her at all, and she later heard that another family, who lived further away that her got a place around July time when someone dropped out.

The LEA confirmed that if a late place is offered you need to look at the criteria AT THE TIME THE PLACE IS OFFERED. By moving nearer the school after the deadline and initial allocation meant she should have been top of the waiting list for both schools. The school that offered other children places because they lived in the area and applied before the deadline were wrong.

What I am saying is that if the child was

The child was offered a place in the normal round of admissions. The deadline was in March for 'evidence' to be handed in to the school. This included evidence of worship and baptismal certificates.

The child was given a place in that round of allocations. The school was oversubscribed and the school told me they didn't take any non Catholics e.g. all children were baptised. However, this child was not baptised until June so I question whether they have followed the criteria properly.

Hope that makes sense......

Ok. worth appealing, esp as they can take 31 on appeal, but not sure LEA will want to get involved in faith based criteria...

The situation is very simple. Even if you can prove that a place was offered incorrectly, you were second on the waiting list and therefore would not have been the recipient of the place. As such you would not get a place at appeal due to this one issue.

What is the admission criteria for the school, where do siblings come on the criteria in relation to baptised children?

You do have to prove to the satisfaction of the appeal panel that the child in question was not baptised until June as you allege. What I would say to you is that where there is one mistake there is quite often others. So it may well be worth making the case that you know of one instance of apparent mistakes being made and that you need the panel to be sure that the others have been properly offered a place. Not sure it will get you to where you want, but it is the best option.

Could it be that the baptism was booked at the time of allocation and this was deemed sufficient?

Isn't it a bit crap that randomers can check the SN status of "rival" school place applicants? That's worse than a bit of admissions jiggery pokery, surely?

JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar - in response to your really helpful comment .....

Firstly, I'm not a 'randomer' or a 'rival' ..... I'm a parent who wants a place at the local Catholic school for my child.

Secondly, I didn't 'check' any status ... I know when the child was baptised because my friend was at mass the day he was baptised.

Thirdly, I'm sure that if your child was on the negative end of some 'admissions jiggery pokery' you wouldn't be so flippant about it. The whole reason that admissions criteria exist is so that places are given on a fair basis ..... however, I think your comment nicely highlights that people have different moral values.

If my child had missed out on a place and I knew the admissions process had been adhered to I would not be going to appeal. As it is, I strongly believe it hasn't been adhered to. I defy any parent in the same position not to do the same - yourself included.

she is commenting on the fact that you apparently checked the SN status of this child, not the baptism.

I was wondering about that SD.
So if you apply to a school as appropriate placement for your child with an sn, everyone else gets to see it?
I didn't know that.

Get your friend to sign a affadvit that the child was
Baptised in June. The parish newletter from that date might also confirm this.

If the child wasn't baptised at the time of admission
He or she should,kt be considered for a place SEN or 'looked after' as the child was not a Catholic.

MrsOB Mon 28-Jun-10 19:53:09
"We have checked and there are no special needs issues."

MrsOB Tue 29-Jun-10 15:19:28
"Secondly, I didn't 'check' any status ..."

Erm - either you have checked or you haven't...
I very much doubt the school would confirm that said child has (or has not) got SN

Sorry, didn't realise SN was special needs..... my friend who knows family said there were no special needs, that was all the 'checking' I did. The info from the school, which is public, did not have any children allocated in special needs category.

If there is sibling this already gives them a leg up and they just might been waiting to child old enough to take part in

Sorry to say it but it will look like case of sour grapes have you got any other grounds to appeal on

We had to book our DC's baptism's 4 months inadvance, so whilst maybe they weren't physically baptised at the time the fact that they were booked in was enough to get them their place.

Dd has now got place at C of E school that did give places priorty to church goers but for us it's only school in village and could proove that if dd did not get acolace she would be losing out as would not be able to make local friends and that it. Would put great strain on family as I would need be home put ds3 into his Sn taxi and collect end of the day.plus all village social events done through school .

So dd lept to top of waiting list .mind 25 houses in village 94 places In school next school for dd is 6 mikes which we have been doing on bus .So me personally if anyone wanted to argue that dd should not got place as not church goers would got short sharp shrift

Due to the difficulty if not impossibility of getting children to and from different schools on time each day, you may find that the sibling rule works for that family rather than the exact date of the baptism.
If the other child has an older sibling at the school then the family are catholic and the child is catholic even if not baptised at the time of application. They may have had the baptism booked.
In our area the rule is baptised but the family must also be 'active in the church community'. You just don't know the family circumstances or what they do within the church community.
I do hope you are not suggesting that the child is removed from the school so yours can attend.

Catholic children are meant to be given priority over non-catholic siblings in Catholic schools, as far as I know.

I think MrsOB is right. If the criteria is "children who are baptised Catholic" and the child was not baptised AT THE TIME OF OFFER then the criteria has not been applied correctly. In order to legitimately give that child a place the criteria would have to read "children who will be baptised by the time they start school".

Friend of a friend with three children already in a Catholic school didn't get a place for her fourth initially because for some reason she hadn't baptised him before he was 2 as per the criteria.

To clarify my original post, the oversubscription criteria is as follows:-

1. SEN
2. BAPTISED Catholic siblings
3. BAPTISED Catholics
4. Non Catholic Siblings (e.g those not baptised Catholic)
5. Non Catholics

We had to give a Supplementary Form into the school by March and provide the relevant evidence e.g. baptismal certificate and evidence of worship. Baptismal certificate had to be provided for those in category 2) and 3).

My argument is this - the child I am referring to should have been in category 4 - not category 2 as it would seem has happened.

For our appeal information the school sent us a list of the categories, number of applicants in each category and the distance from the school. There were only 2 children in category 4), and I don't believe either of these were the child I am referring to ..... and before I get blasted, no, I've not been stalking them, my friend knows the family and the live closer to the school than the distance on the info the school gave us.

Yes, there are sibling children at the school, but they don't have to be Catholics. This is the first year since the school started that they have not been able to go down to category 5) which is non Catholics.

Most Catholics would get their child baptised before they are 4. My mum helps run the baptsim programme at her church and she said she cannot remember the last time they did a baptism for a child over 2.

I am not in any way suggesting that the child I'm referring to should have their place taken away from them. I am not that heartless ..... I just want to highlight that I don't believe the criteria have been properly applied and try to get my child a place at that school. A Catholic education is very important to us.

Thank you for clarifying the admission criteria.
I still believe that the panel will need clear proof that this happened before they will take note. As a panel member I reguarly hear a tale about those children who got a place under false pretences but never any proof that this happened. No panel will accept any information without some level of proof.

However you are confusing the timings here. At the point where the place was offered your child was number 2 on the waiting list and so your child was not disadvantaged by this "mistake". The pupil who was number 1 on the waiting list was the one that was disadvantaged.

I am also confused by your comments that you in category 2 but did not get a place whereas the school admitted into category 4. You should have had a place offered if you were an on-time application. If you were not on time and the other family were you are not comparing like with like.

Admission, thanks for your comments.

I did think that the fact he was second on the waiting list would mean we probably wouldn't be successful......
In terms of the categories, DS was in category 3. The child I'm questioning should have been (according to the criteria) in category 4, but for him to have been offered a place the school must have put him in category 2. The school filled their places before offering to everyone in category 3.

In terms of proof, the representative of the school surely would know this happened as she is on the admissions panel. Can we question her about it at appeal? Without proof are you saying she could just deny it and not provide any evidence her side????