Admissions criteria not followed - faith school appeal - who needs to provide evidence?

[MrsOB]

Hi

I've posted here previously and got great advice on appealing a place at the local Catholic school. We have our appeal set for a few weeks time and I wonder if I can trouble you all for advive again!!!

I strongly believe the admissions criteria was not followed at this school ... to cut a long story short a child was offered a place (sibling) who had not been baptised Catholic before the entry deadline. The child has only recently been baptised (in the last couple of weeks) . The parent already has a child at the school and is an active member of the PTA......

Becasue of the non-baptism. this child should have been in a category below my DS. My DS is now first on the waiting list, after a child who was above him was removed from the waiting list.

I have put all this information in a letter to the appeal panel but I'm just wondering if I will need to PROVE that this child was not baptised before the entry deadline. Is it up to me to provide the proof or will the panel members want to see proof from the school?

Also, in terms of waiting lists ..... if the panel find the school did not apply the correct procedure and my son was originally second on the waiting list does that mean he won't get a place anyway? Do I need to find out if the other child who was above him got a higher ranked school place?

Sorry for all the questions, I just want to make sure I go in there with everything I need - I don't think it's going to be easy!!!!

Admission, thanks for your comments.

I did think that the fact he was second on the waiting list would mean we probably wouldn't be successful......
In terms of the categories, DS was in category 3. The child I'm questioning should have been (according to the criteria) in category 4, but for him to have been offered a place the school must have put him in category 2. The school filled their places before offering to everyone in category 3.

In terms of proof, the representative of the school surely would know this happened as she is on the admissions panel. Can we question her about it at appeal? Without proof are you saying she could just deny it and not provide any evidence her side????

Sorry, posted twice.... durrrrr!

You can ask any questions you want at appeal of the admitting authority, providing the chair does not overrule you for trespassing too far into your personal circumstances.

So for instance you could ask how many were in each different criteria (which you already know) and then follow that with how did you establish all those that were in category 2. They will no doubt say something about baptism to which you ask did you see the baptism certificates of all those put in the category, prior to deciding the admission order. At that point they can say yes (and may be lying) or they can start to try and change the subject. You need to press the representative for a yes or no answer.

If they say yes, then you have no option but to press on and say it is my understanding that at least one in the list was not baptised till June, how do you respond to that? That I suspect is the point where the Chair might start to get a bit twitchy about where the conversation is going but you need to try and get an admission that the admission arrangements were not properly administered and that a wholesale review of the actual places offered is necessary. Without that I do not see you winning at appeal.

It would not be a great surprise to me that the priest was the person who decided who was baptised or not without the admission panel seeing any certificates.

Ideally you need to try and get the panel to ask to see the baptism certificates. If the school is really well organised they will have them and a quick glance will either destroy your case or prove it.

Are you sure that this person who was on the admission panel of the school is going to be at the appeal hearing, qute often it is the headteacher who comes and they may well not be as well prepared to answer any of your questions.

OP - Have I understood you correctly? Your child is not catholic, but you are appealing to the local catholic school as they let in a child (who is now a baptised catholic) ahead of yours?

Have I misunderstood you?

You said a catholic education was important to you so I assumed you (and your family) were catholic?

As an aside, it may be that the in family whose child was baptised late, that the adults in that family are also converting to Catholicism. In our parish, that process starts in the September of the previous year, and takes until April. Any children in the family, are then welcomed (and baptised) in May or June.

Hi Admissions,

Thanks, your advice is really helpful.

The admissions panel of the school consisted of 7 people - the head, the admissions chair and 5 others. I believe that the admissions chair is going to be at the appeal representing the school.

Can I 'suggest' to the panel on the day of appeal that I would like them to see the baptism certificates? Everybody had to give a copy of their DC's certificates as evidence if relevant for the category.

Also, the appeal is going to consist of a few sets of parents at the first stage (I understand this is where the school prove they correctly followed procedure ) ... so is it okay to bring it up in front of everyone? Do we all get to hear every other parents reasons for appealing?

TBH, because of the fact that DS was second on the waiting list I'm really not holding out for a place. The child who was above him has now been removed from the list because they got a higher preference school, hence he is now first on the list.

I would just like admission from the school that they didn't adhere to their procedures. They were quite snooty with me when I suggested that they may not have followed procedure, in particular the admissions chair, so I am expecting the same reception at appeal!!

JGB Mum .... my child was baptised Catholic before he was 1 year old. We are all Catholic.

I question the baptism of said child because he already has a sibling at the school (has been there for 3 years) and the parents have not got either child baptised during that time.

Call me a cynic but I just think the timing is a bit suspicious!

Either way, the admissions criteria specially states 'Baptised Catholic children', with no mention of whether or not they are going to be baptised soon. At the time of the allocation of places, the child was not baptised so to me that child cannot be categorised as a 'Baptised Catholic child'. But maybe I'm looking at it in too simplistic terms.......

OP - my apologies, I thought you were saying your child was cat 4, not cat 3. I misread your post.

Mrs OB,
The situation is that you need to ask the questions in part1 of the hearing. This is where the admission authority (the school) explain how they gave out the allocation of places and why they cannot offer any more places, that is it would be prejudicial to the school to admit more.

It would normally be what is called a grouped appeal, where the school do their bit with all the parents present, the parents ask their questions followed by panel members. As far as getting the certificates shown, you have to ask questions not demand actions so you need to ask carefully of the person representing the school where the certificates are. I suspect that they may not be with them at the appeal and you are then going to have to ask the person how they can therefore prove that all the pupils were in cat2. Then ask the chair of the panel to explain how this can be resolved and hope they do the necessary and ask for this info. This may well end up in the appeal being adjourned - you will be popular then!

The panel have to decide two questions at the end of stage1, were the admission arrangements correctly administered (and you want them to say no) and have the school made a case for not admitting any more pupils, which is actually admitting all the pupils appealing.
Your case is all about stage 1, because from your posts the reason you want a place is because your child can have a catholic education, which of course everybody will say, so you have little chance of convincing the panel at stage 2 unless you have some more convincing arguements than you have stated in your posts. The stage 2 discussions are between the panel and the individual parents, not all the parents. So whilst it might be obvious from the questioning by the parents in stage 1 what their angle is, it is not always the case and there may be very confidential information shared with the panel at stage 2.

Awesome,

Thanks so much for the advice .... I think we know now what our strategy will be. Really appreciate it .... will let you know how it goes.

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