Will a clever child do well in any school or is it important they go somewhere which will challenge them??

[ireallyreallyhatefootball]

Having a bit of a debate with ourselves about ds' school.

Ds is only in reception but seems pretty clever (don't we all think that of our dcs!? Based on what teachers said and it's fairly obvious) The level of teaching isn't the same as where he is working and the differentiation is very minimal. This might improve next year in year one and hasn't worried us too much this year as it is only reception.

BUT his school is mediocre for education according to every source going (ofsted, parents with children up the school etc).
The negative things mentioned in the ofsted are the same ones several of our friends with kids higher up the school don't like and the same things I have seen in reception e.g. lack of differentiation, not very organised, mediocre out of date teaching.

But ds is happy. His life is easy. If we moved him to a private school (which we can easily afford to be honest - and there is only one child in our family) he would have to travel 25 to 30 mins each way, leave his friends he has made etc. Longer holidays would be a pain for my work (I work part time in town and it's hard to manage normal holidays never mind longer private school ones). He'd have to get up earlier etc.

Lifestyle wise it is much better where he is I suspect BUT I fear that he is getting quite a mediocre education compared to other better state schools and some preps (not saying these are all good either)
Does it matter if he's happy and hasn't complained he's bored if he isn't doing as well as he could and coasts?

If you do decide to keep him where he is try and do as much with him as you can. I don't mean tutors etc but reading together, trips out and talk, talk, talk about everything going on around you.

Having had problems with oldest DS and a mediocre school (and a stubborn DH who thinks the school is wonderful so younger children still there) I decided to do the stretching myself with the younger ones and tell them primary school is for making friends and enjoying the fun side.

I wouldn't say dd's school is the most wonderful establishment on earth.

But - we walk there and back, and she has made a lovely little group of friends. Dd is incredibly shy and also is the youngest in the year, so a secure environment was a top priority for me.

I would keep your ds where he is at the moment - he's only little and the private school you mention sounds an awfully long journey to be making every day.

The school may surprise you as well - dd now has one-to-one sessions several times a week to go into things in more depth (although the main benefit as far as dd is concerned is being able to miss "boring old assembly"!).

What are her one to one sessions for?
Are they for her shyness or reading/ writing stuff?

I am wondering if I could gently ask school what they can do for him next year if he is working quite a way ahead of the top group. I don't want to make a big fuss.

Dd's extra bits are for literacy - she was learning about clauses last week. She is in Year 2, by the way - she wouldn't have known a clause from her elbow in Reception!

Did she get anything like this in year 1? (one on one sessions not lessons on clauses )

Not in year 1, no, although they were set across the year for maths and literacy (3 classes) and were on ability tables within each class - as they are now.

I think some children will do well wherever they go to school. But most definitely not all.
Only you can say if your child would benefit from a more challenging environment. Probably a bit too early to say?

DC1 (primary 1, age 5) is in our local school which has a great reputation, but is very overcrowded. To the point where I feel decisions are being made on the basis of dealing with a large number of children rather than what is best for the children e.g. the school does not have enough reading books so reading is limited, there are not enough chairs so the children can't all the same activities at the same time.

DH always wanted DC1 to go to a local independent school because he was worried about the overcrowding, but I refused as I (still) feel that social skills, being excited about learning, and making friends are what matter in early years. So, I wanted DC1 to go to a school we could walk to and where he knew some of the children. However, I agreed DC1 could go to the other school to see it, and he loved it. We were offered a place, and have spent the last few months considering it. For me the big problem was that DC1 had made friends in his school so was it fair to move him. DC1 is really keen to go to the new school, and he has been for an introduction afternoon there, and made friends. We've given him the choice, and he has asked to go to the new school.

What I'm saying in a long winded way is that it depends on the child. Some will be ok with moving, some will struggle. Personally, if you think you will make the move at some point I would do it sooner rather than later.

I don't think any clever child will do well in any school. Some clever children will do well in any school. Some clever children won't do well in any school. Most clever children are in the middle somewhere.

My two brothers and I went through the same fairly mediocre primary school. Brother 1 and I did fine, but brother 2 was a natural coaster and did as little as he could get away with (and the school let him get away with doing very little indeed, without ever suggesting that there was a problem). It did screw up his whole educational career, really. Now he's working very hard (no longer a coaster) but hasn't achieved anything like what he should have achieved academically or professionally.

In your case, I really wouldn't worry in Reception if he's happy. See how year 1 goes. But if he's happy and not actually coasting then I wouldn't move him just because he's not being stretched as much as he might be.

That first line should have been "Some clever children will do well in any school. Some clever children won't do well whatever school they are in."

I actually really like our school, but I sympathise that hearing 'your (Y1) Dd is streaks ahead in reading' is a double edged sword. I'm glad she's doing well, but worry about her being stretched.

She does a lot of reading at home, and seems to be panning out to be quite into her extra-curricula sports and music.

The school seem to have a couple of fun free-wheelin' ideas which also give her room to grow (she was selected for an 'invitation only' after school club, for example).

In general, I think I'm OK with it so far.... but it would depend on the school, I agree.

dd's just coming to the end of y2 - she's one of the older ones in the class and flying academically - we're moving her to another school in September for a variety of reasons - one is she's bored, there are no other girls who are at her level and only one other boy with whom she seems to spend a lot of time outside the class doing extension work (e.g. they were happily doing their 12 times table - up to 22x12! - when the others were doing 2x ..). Being near the top of the class is fine, but being out on a limb is quite isolating.

the other thing is that up to now she's been relatively happy socially, but her two best friends are both moving away and the two things combined have led us to look for somewhere else

She's going to a local private school which is still mixed ability (selective at 7+ but not at 4+) but has a lot more sport, drama, music, art and they also do French properly - the same number of children in the year but split across three classes rather than two so more individual attention

in your position I'd leave him where he is for now, but reassess at the start of y2, ready to move him if need be for y3 onwards

I think that seems a good plan Basildon (love the name...)

I can very much relate to your comments. Someone has to be 'top of the class' but way ahead is difficult. Ds is clearly only in reception but I am hoping others will catch up a bit so there are enough to have a top ability group that is vaguely right for him.

At the moment there is too big a gulf between where he is at and the others in the top cohort from what I know (based on the teacher's comments). Some parents would be delighted by this but I'd prefer it if there were others the same. I imagine in a three form entry school there'd be more scope for this as it's a numbers thing - his school is one form entry so there's less likely to be someone the same.

He's actually a June birthday which I'm glad about as if he were Sept he'd be even further ahead probably.

So...to go back to that question before...fair to ask the teachers what they will do with him next year or should I wait and see and not seem pushy? (As background we're talking him being ahead by about a year from the others in the top group at the moment).

I'd say use this term parents' evening to ask what differences there will be next year in teaching, and also see what they say in terms of his abilities. If they agree that he's ahead, ask if there are others too, as that's what's really important imo. In DS's class (inner city deprived area primary), there are a handful who are very, very bright in a very mixed ability class, but that's only really become apparent in Yr1. The school's been clever in terms of sorting out differentiated learning and it seems to work well for now. I'd only worry if as BB says my child was out the only one on that level.

Just thinking about your thread title, Will a clever child do well in any school or is it important they go somewhere which will challenge them??

As an aside I would say that it's also vitally important a 'middle ability' or 'lower ability' child is somewhere that will stretch and challenge them every day in every way possible. Of course they should also be nurtured in a great environment in every other way also.

In the early years, unless truly exceptionally gifted, it's possible or even likely that a 'clever' child could be a 'middle ability' or even a 'low ability' child in another setting.

I can only relate our experience- DD was happily coasting along and was still at the top at an outstanding local primary.She was not academicallychallenged and infact started having an attitude that it is easy to be at the top with no work involved on her part,which I did not agree with. She was asked to help another boy as she was way ahead of him in year 3( who was also at the top set - which I dont mind if it was done occasionally bit I got the feeling that this was happening almost on a regular basis and she spends most of her time doing this).I wont say that she is gifted but she is a bright girl and she needed challenge to her interested in learning. We moved her to a nonseltive independent school with excellent pastoral care( she has children with varying ability in her class) but she has to work hard to stay ahead esp with the super competitive boys in her class I have no regrets in changing the school and we still keep in touch with her friends from her old school.
I agree completely with Cortrina- I have a pre schooler at home and will send her to our local primary for the reasons- she might be totally different from her sister and it does not really matter in the early year if you can read to them at home,encourage them to socialise etc.,

Remember it's not just about being stretched.

It's also about peer pressure and motivation, especially at secondary school.

Sometimes bright children at a non-academic school may "dumb down" artificially because they don't want to stand out. If you send them to an academic school they will not stand out and will feel comfortable doing well.

On the other hand, there may be some bright children who are most happy being at the top of the class, and would lose confidence if they were in the middle. Those children might do better at a less academic school.

Doesn't exactly answer the OP but just some other factors to think about.

Interesting Smee.

At the moment afaik he is considerably ahead of the top group (three or four NC book bands) and "even further ahead" with numeracy according to the teacher at the last parents eve so it's not conjecture from me.
He shows all the signs of being a very able child (leaping through book bands, only needing to be shown maths concepts once and 'getting them' etc.) and this is little surprise since both ds and myself come from families with lots of exceptionally intelligent people (it clearly skipped a generation with me ).

I am hoping that by next year one or two others in the class might have caught up. Is that feasible?? If there were four or five who were at the same or a similar level in the top group it would work much better for ds. As it is the top group would still be working a few levels lower than he is.

To answer your question Cortina, I don't think he's one of these freaky kids who is five or seven years ahead - maybe two or so years ahead at the moment in some areas (not all).

Minipie that's an interesting point.

What I am find with my DCs is that they seem to rise to meet the average of whatever group they are put with by and large, being with higher achievers brings them on and encourages them. I've always tried to teach them to have a growth mindset, I believe that ability does not have a ceiling. My children have a funny habit of delivering exactly what we expect from them.

The school believe it is always better that they should be at the top end of a less able group so self esteem does not suffer and indeed grows.

If I took that further I might put them in a school that wasn't academic and the danger is then that whilst 'feeling good' they might not do as well as they would if pushed in a more academic environment.

It's funny I see parents make decisions about their DCS which will shape their characters going forward/perhaps even create self fulfilling prophecies 'I would never let my DD have a large part in the school play because she's sensitive etc'. Perhaps but if they are offered the part why not let them have a go? Sometimes I think WE decide unwittingly whether our children should/shouldn't be pushed, whether they are sensitive or gregarious, whether they are 'high', 'middle' or 'low' ability even.

It's a difficult balance to strike, how much to push them etc.

Definitely feasible as some make huge leaps between reception and Yr1. I know in DH's group some of them started Yr1 on reading levels say 3/4 and are easily now long level 10. It's as though some click all of a sudden.

That would be good although ds shows no sign of slowing down so they'd have to do a giant leap on to catch up with reading if he is still progressing at this rate.

Would be better in a bigger entry school as there would be more likely to be others similar but then I love the cosiness of this school.

Furious head nodding at minipie's post. This is exactly my personal experience during the 9 different schools I attended as a child. I vividly remember "forgetting" words in a Latin vocab test as I was too obviously ahead, and similarly remember being demoralised when I switched from being the top of the class at a small private school to being average and somewhat lost at the local comp. I guess I liked attention, but not too much.

I have noted many, many comments on MN previously about the big leap that children, esp boys, can make between Reception and Y1. At DS's school, I know of at least 4 boys who were doing OK in Rec and are now flying in Y2.

It seems from these posts that making a decision for yr 3, junior school, is sensible. I wonder though, how well kids adjust to moving school and leaving their friends - and how is it living among former classmates who go to the local state school?

I'm mulling this over for dd, in reception. It might be fine for her - but for me - school went totally pair-shaped from around yr 3. I wouldn't want history to repeat itself. But not sure about the social upheaval.

Acin we won't have that problem as our state school catchment is quite spread out but yes I think it'd be strange to be the odd one out if you're the only one who goes to the private school.

I think you'd just have to big up all the exciting stuff at the new school.

I've posted on t'other page, I may aswell tell you about ds and his eaperiences (I bet you know where I'm heading with this)

He seemed to be a normal baby, he's an only child, first born so I had nothing to compare him with. I didn't think it odd that he could laugh at 2 weeks, nor did I think it strange that he could read the alphabet, count and recognise basic shapes and colours 2 weeks after his first birthday. By 3.5 he was reading, he asked so I taught him to read 'it' and 'the', then he read a whole Mr Man book. He started a state primary in reception when he was 4, I did tell them he could read/add/subtract, I got alot of um.../oh... They allowed him to do literacy with the year 1 class, otherwise he was with the rest of the reception class, it was hell for him. He was climbing the walls. I'll be the first to admit that I didn't have a clue what to do with him, the school were more concerned with his behaviour rather then the extreme boredom, he didn't want to paint, he wanted to learn, he's been asking questions since he was 12 months old, school didn't stop this.
I moved him to a private school, his work was changed to match his ability, however, he has not yet (and he's 11) been stretched. He seems to cope with everything he's given, in maths he can do the GCSE next year if he wants to, he picks up new ideas straight away and it takes him about 5 minutes to complete the work designed to take all lesson, if not all week. Science wise he understood about atomic structure at 5, his anatomy was never an arm or a leg, it was femur and radius. I really don't think I'll be able to find anywhere that can stretch him, sometimes you have to work with what you have got as the grass isn't always greener on the other side.

Play it by ear, if he's unhappy then look for somewhere else, it's impossible to find the perfect school, they don't exist.