Primary Waiting Lists

[Sunnydays1234]

Wondered if someone could help with a query on waiting lists. I applied just after the closing date so didn't get my catchment school. After the allocations I contacted my LA to check what place we were on the waiting list and was advised we were at the bottom of the list because we applied late. My LA have allocated the list with catchment, then distance, then late. I advised them of the Admissions Code 3.19 but they say they are right in the way they do the list. If we had been included in the catchment list we live the nearest to school so we would be first. I have found out today that all places at the school have been accepted, one wasn't but they've allocated this off the waiting list. I have raised my query to the LA since the first week in April, What should I do now?

I believe the LA are fundamentaly wrong, paragraphs 3.19 and 3.20 are in deed the key paragraphs that relate to filling of available places after the initial allocation. After the school has been given its full initial allocation of pupils there is a short period (2 weeks) were the LA will be getting in acceptances and declines from parents when there will probably be no movement in pupils. However as soon as the LA goes to fill a declined place at the school, in theory it has to fill from the waiting list which has to be in admission criteria order.

There is in some LAs a system where there is some kind of second sift of available places but my reading of the regulations is such that this should be off a waiting list.

Hopefully you have some documentary proof of when you asked for a place because this will become important at any appeal to show that you should have been at the top of the waiting list.

Assuming it is a community school can you tell me which Local Authority it is because whilst what I have said above I believe to be correct, the LA may have such a system and have it detailed in writing. Whether it is right is a mute point but it could be a long term thing that has never been challenged before.

I agree with Admission that the LA are wrong. Paragraph 3.19 of the Admissions Code says "Waiting lists... must not give priority to children based on the date either their application was received or their name was added to the list." I cannot see any way of interpreting that sentence that allows the LA to put late applicants at the bottom of the list.

You say that you should have been top of the list and that a child has been admitted from the waiting list. I think you therefore have grounds for appeal on the basis that your child would have been offered a place if the admission arrangements had not been contrary to mandatory provisions in the School Admissions Code. That is grounds for a successful appeal even in an infant class size case. This is a case which I would definitely take to the LGO if an appeal fails.

Yes I have emails which show's I queried the waiting list and their replies back. They have spent a month looking at this and come back saying all late applications are dealt with last after all the admissions criteria so that is why we are at the bottom. I have advised them they are breaking the law in not following the admissions code. I am now concerned that they have given someone a place off the waiting list and we haven't been considered. The LA is Stockport they have nothing in writing to say this just that late applications like all LA do are dealt with after all allocations. We are waiting our appeal date anyway.

I think I have found a big mistake in their admissions procedure and they are hoping I will go away. I didn't realise I could take this through to appeal on these grounds as I am waiting for an appeals date on infant class size, so should I now make this part of my appeal? I rang the school today to see if they had received all replies back from parents so I asked them if any hadn't accepted and they said one but they have filled this off the waiting list. I'm sure admissions wouldn't tell me this.

Yes, by and large LAs deal with late applications following applications. However, LAs do NOT put late applications at the bottom of the waiting list. I've had a look at Salfords Primary admissions booklet for 2010/11 and I can't see anything in that to indicate that they put late applications at the end of the waiting list.

As a child has been admitted from the waiting list you can definitely bring this up in your appeal. If the panel are of the view that your child should have been at the head of the waiting list at the time the place was filled from the waiting list that will be grounds for them to admit.

Good luck.

I have had a good look around the Stockport website and they actually do confirm this policy under late admissions in the Admissions Policy document at www.stockport.gov.uk/services/educationlearning/schoolsmanagementorganisation/schooladmission s/?view=Standard

It actually says

"The council reserves the right to treat the form as though it were not received late where there are valid reasons for the late return, they will be treated as in (a) above. Those applications considered to be late will be taken into account AFTER all applications received on or before the closing date have been considered:
I. There is no guarantee of a place at any school.
II. Families resident in Stockport will be allocated a place at the nearest school with places if the preferred school(s) are full.
III. The child?s name will be placed at the end of all waiting lists for the preferred school(s)."

I can only conclude that this is what Stockport has done for many years and nobody has realised this is illegal under 3.19 and 3.20.

I would suggest that you might like to take a second opinion from ACE as to how they view this but I would expect them to confirm mine and PRH's view that this is a mistake and a definite appeal worth following up on.

Thank you for your help with this I was really shocked when they told me we were at the bottom of the list. I've been through the LA's admission book and it doesn't indicate they put late applications at the bottom of the list and the reasons for this seem to be their interpretation of this being late, this is what they have added to the criteria which doesn't read like this in the booklet:-

Waiting lists for each school are ordered by applications received by the closing date and those received after the closing date.

Applications received by the closing date and those received after the closing date are ordered using the oversubscription criteria below and within each criteria straight line distance from the school. Applications received by the closing date will be offered before Applications received after the closing date:

Children with a SEN
A. Children in Public Care
B. Children who have a sibling in attendance at the school in September
C. Children considered to have Highly exceptional Medical/Social
D. Children resident within the catchment area of a school
E. Other children based on distance from the school.

Your application will be ordered as an application received after the closing date, a catchment area application ordered by straight line distance from the school which will be above any application received after the closing date for applicants outside of the catchment area.

I'm just getting so frustrated with them because this has been going on since the 7th April and we're no further on now. Then you start to question yourself if your right or wrong.

Hi Admission, I've spoken to ACE several times and as soon as I mentioned they were adding me to the bottom of the list they said straight away they are breaking the law and referred me to section 3.19 of the waiting list. Do you think if they put this then I can't do anything?

Absolutely you should appeal on the basis that this is contrary to 3.19 and 3.20 and that you should have been at the top of the waiting list and awarded the one place that has been awarded from the waiting list.

Nobody is immune from making mistakes we all do from time to time. However I don't understand how they cannot see that they are doubling up on the "punishment" for being late, once in having to wait till after all those on time had an allocation, which I believe to be fair and then in putting you at the end of the waiting list.

My concern is that independant appeal panel members are trained and a lot of the training is done by independant people like John Chard and ACE but some is done in-house by the LA people. If that is the case here then the panel may also have been indoctrinated in accepting this. You need to go to appeal but i would also be considering making a complaint to the LGO about this now and see where it gets you.

Thank you are this has put my mind to rest before I go to bed. I did say this to the head of admissions that I just can't seem to get away from this late application whichever way I turn they keep saying no you were late so I'm just keep being punished. I'm not going to let this go and I thought this had always been the case with this LA and I may have opened up a can of worms other parents who have been in my position in the past had not challenged this before. I really don't want to have to go through this but if this is the only way I have little choice.

I agree with Admission. I also share Admission's concerns about the panel's training. It would be interesting to see if the LGO would take this case now. They usually won't get involved until you've had an appeal so you may have to go through with that first.

It may take a while and be difficult but please stick with it. At the end of it there should be a place for your daughter at your catchment school. Also it will force Salford to fix their procedures so that other parents in future won't have to go through the same problems.

You know where to come if you need some help or support as you go through this!

I've already been in touch with the fair access department for Children, Schools and Families, so started the ball rolling but think I will contact the LGO as well now. I have advised the admissions department that I would be contacting them if this doesn't get resolved but they think they are right and now I can see why.

A big thank you for your help with this, I have been following your replies for sometime and finally decided to put a message on here. I was so glad you both came back to me as I was hoping you would and you've come back to me so quickly and given me sound advise. I'm sure I'II be after your support again soon, and fingers crossed I'II get a place at the end of it.

prh47bridge & admission - Just to let you know I wrote to the department of education and they have come back to me and said I am correct in my understanding of paragraph 3.19 of the School Admissions Code which states that waiting lists must not give priority to children based on the date either their application was received or added to the list. They have advised me to continue this compliant through the admissions team and appeal as you suggested. But at least now I have something in writing I can use in my appeal.

I think that a nice polite letter to the admission manager at Stockport with a copy of the DfE letter might be in order here. You might just hear the panic that starts when they realise the implications of this letter for all late applications. Just point out that you would now like them to put you in the right position in the waiting list.

If I was the admission manager I might just be tempted to "find" you a place so that this bombshell does not leak out to other late applicants in Stockport!

Well done Sunnydays - good move. And I agree with Admission on your next step. Hope it produces the desired result.

i think admission gives excellent advice but if they don't budge i'd think about going to the press. your local news (tv ideally) or even national as you live close and there is a strong suggestion of illegality. the daily mail love this sort of thing. 'tot illegally denied/robbed of school place'.
naturally, mention to the LA that you've nowhere else to go before you take this route. it might help concentrate their minds! good luck.

I was thinking of asking you if you think I should contact admissions with this now or wait until my appeal. If I could get this sorted before an appeal would be fantastic; like most parents I really don't want to go through this. I will drop them a line and see whether it makes any difference.

The only concern I have is I rang the school to ask them if any parents hadn't accepted any places so they were the one's who told me that one hadn't. I've e-mailed admissions to ask them the same questions but they haven't come back to me.

Tell admissions that this is vital information that you need for your appeal. That should push them into producing an answer.

If it does end up going to appeal this is one I'd love to attend, especially as you are relatively local. It would be great to watch the LA tying themselves in knots trying to explain how putting late applicants at the end of the waiting list complies with a provision in the Admissions Code which says you mustn't do that! If only they had a public gallery for admissions appeals...

Oh you can come as my friend then, if it goes to appeal I?II keep you updated. I?m not feeling that confident but that?s made me feel better if you think the appeal will be that interesting, it?s just they are sure they are doing everything right as the policy has been approved. They say that it wouldn?t be fair to give us a place because other people on the waiting list applied on time and we didn?t so that?s why they put us at the bottom.

I?ve just been trying to put an e-mail together and not sure how to play this. Do you think I should mention that there was one place not accepted? I was going to say - I understand that one parent didn?t accept a place at the school; I would really appreciate now if you would reconsider putting us where we should be positioned on the waiting list with us living closest to the school.

The fact the policy has been approved is irrelevant. It is clearly in breach of the School Admissions Code. The Code is a statutory document, which means it has the force of law and can be enforced by the courts if necessary. If the LA's policy is in breach of the Code, the Code wins.

Whether they think it is fair or not is also irrelevant. The Admissions Code is clear. They aren't allowed to put people at the end of the waiting list just because they applied late.

I beat my LA when they were convinced they were doing everything right. Time and again I come across LAs that don't seem to understand the Admissions Code. It is a big document but it really isn't that complicated.

You definitely want the LA to confirm that they have admitted a child from the waiting list. That will be important information for the appeal (if it gets that far).

I would say something like, "I have received the attached letter from the DCSF. You will note that they confirm that Stockport's policy of placing late applicants at the end of the waiting list is in breach of paragraph 3.19 of the School Admissions Code. I trust you will therefore alter your policy and immediately move my child to the head of the waiting list. Further, I understand that one child has been admitted from the waiting list as a result of a rejected offer. As my child should have been at the head of the waiting list at the time the place became available had the waiting list been operated in accordance with the School Admissions Code, I trust you will make a place available for my child immediately. If this matter goes to appeal I will, of course, be presenting the DCSF letter as part of my evidence to the panel. Please confirm the number of children who have been admitted from the waiting list as this will be vital information for the appeal". I would actually use "son" or "daughter" rather than "child" but I don't think you've told us which it is!

That would be my approach. Feel free to use it or ignore it!

I'm happy to help in any way I can.

This sounds great, I was worried how to come across in the letter. Do you live in greater manchester then. Oh it's my son my the way.

This sounds great, I was worried how to come across in the letter. Do you live in greater manchester then. Oh it's my son my the way.

go with the letter and see what happens. I can't imagine the LA will want to go to appeal with this because they will lose and it will become much more public knowledge than they want.

Being serious this could affect a lot of people who are appealing in Stockport LA, because they will be in the wrong position onthe waiting list.

I'm not in Manchester but I am in the North West. I'm not going to be more specific than that on a public forum! Feel free to contact me if you want to know more.

No I fully understand, thanks again to you both. I'II get this letter to them and see what happens - your both really positive which makes me feel better.