<<sigh.. Iv'e been asked to acompany DS on his art trip, or he can't go.

[LynetteScavo]

But I'm working that day, and it's a day we're really short staffed.

Apparently DS "has a volatile relationship with art"

Which really means this particular teacher can't control him. He misses out on art, French and Music each week, as he "has concentration problems" when this teacher is taking the class. (He has no concentration problems, he has sensory problems, and can't bear her shouting)

If I can't go, he'll have to stay at school and work, I presume with another class. (DS says this is fine) I'm just feeling so and disappointed.

I'm not even sure why, it's only at the local art gallery which I can take him to. I guess I'm disappointed in DS for not being able to behave for this teacher.

you ought to be disappointed in the teacher for not being able to do her job properly to be honest. how hard would it be for her to accomodate him? presumably other teachers manage it ok?

has a volatile relationhsip with art fgs? what does that even mean??

Educational trips must be accessable for all children or they are not complying with the disability discrimination act.

And if they try to squirm out of this by saying he doesn't have a disability, then why can't they cope with him? Why is he missing out on national curriculum school work (art, french and Music) for ANY reason.

My son has ADHD and concentrates on NOTHING. He doesn't miss out on anything because of it, and nothing like that has ever even been hinted at. They even wanted to take him on an overnight trip somewhere (which I decided not to go for, but they were all for it!)

Don't be disappointed with your son. Be disappointed with your son's teacher. If he has SNs, she should get help in. If not, she should be able to cope fine.

I'm with thisisyesterday. Sounds like she just doesn't want to make the effort and doesn't want him there. Shame on her.

And unsearchable is spot on too.

Technically I think the school will find they shouldn't be excluding him from the trip if a parent can't accompany him. Is it his regular teacher who is leading the trip? If not then, as a teacher, I can well imagine that the behaviour of the class as a whole may be quite different from that displayed with the regular teacher. The school should have put in place support for your son's behaviour with this teacher as it's unacceptable that he misses parts of the curriculum because he doesn't behave when they're taught. It is also unacceptable for a teacher to spend use shouting as a method to control the class (although I'd be wary about accusing any teacher of shouting until I had heard them do so as I know from experience that many children will describe a teacher as shouting if they raise their voice/speak firmly/say something a child doesn't want to hear).

I would advise you to ask the SENCo about the arrangements that have been made to ensure your son is receiving support and also speak to the classteacher about how else it might be possible for him to attend i.e. school use a TA on this occasion. It's likely that the teacher leading the trip will have conducted a risk assessment and concluded that he presents a risk unless he has 1:1 support which is why you've been asked to come along too.

Do you have a friend/other adult family member who would be happy to accompany your DS on this trip? That's another possibility but I would suggest that this is taken up with the school or else it may occur time and time again.

So he is OK with other teachers, but not with this one? I would be raising hell with the school (class teacher and head) IIWY. Maybe it can't be done in time for this particular trip, but I would no way settle for him missing out on art, French and Music - teacher needs to learn to moderate her style (i.e. not shout) to accomodate your DS.

Another point to make is that if your son cannot behave for someone with this teacher's style then it's not really fair for the trip to have been organised/led by her if it's likely that he would be considered safe with his regular teacher. I cover PPA time in a primary school and wouldn't dream of taking someone else's class on a trip because although my behaviour management is pretty good, the children with any behaviour issues tend to be more responsive to their main teacher than to someone who covers once a week.

How old is DS? Does he have SN? Is it only this teacher who has problems with him?

You say he is missing regular NC lessons. This is not on. What is the school doing about this? They should be ensuring he has his full NC entitlement.

Without knowing back story it is hard thpough. there is a little boy in the Y1 class I work in that we are having to consider this approach as he is very difficult to manage, esp in non routine locations. he is a danger to himself (tries to run into busy main road, even when being held; covers eyes with coat when walking, etc.) and to others and as he gets bigger this is becoming more of a problem. He has to have one to one to manage, but as he doesn't have an IEP (being assessed at present for ADHD and poss ASD) as a school we can't finance a one to one for him. We have a school trip next half term and we are really trying hard to work out how to manage this, and asking a parent to accompany him is one such option, as we don't want him to miss out but he is becoming a real danger to himself.

He's 11 (Y6)It's not his usual teacher; she takes the class for one afternoon while the class teacher does PPP (or what ever it's called)

I don't mind him missing music, as they just sing, and he finds it quite noisy; he says he just sits there and doesn't join in. He has keyboard lessons, so I guess that covers music in the curriculum.

I would like him to do some French though, but I was planning to do some over the summer with him before he goes to High School.

The head initially said she wouldn't let him be taken out of this teachers lessons, but I think the teacher must have asked for him to be removed. He was getting quite disruptive, although the school wouldn't tell me what he was doing, DS said he shouted back at the teacher, and jumped up on the desk.

He isn't perfect with his class teacher, but she has learned how to handle him, and after a rocky time around Christmas, they now seem to get on quite well.

You cannot just eject a child from the national curriculum, and you MOST CERTAINLY cannot do this without telling his parents why.

Lynette stand your ground. Your son should go on this trip and the school have got to accomodate him. The teacher sounds very ineffective.

what cornsilk said

Ask to speak to the person in charge of inclusion or SENCO. It is often the one person but not always.

Last time I went to an Art gallery I dont remember it being noisy!

I agree with everyone else. They can't get away with this one.

My two boys have autism and the various sensory problems that go along with it and have never been excluded from a trip.

Another one saying they should be supporting him to enable him to participate in the trip not expecting you to pick up the slack

My Head got into BIG trouble when the LEA found out he was excluding children who hadnt paid from going on school trips.

(We had many, many trips cancelled because so few parents paid - around half the parents wouldnt pay as they expected the school to do so. And we ended up with not enough money to even pay for the coach. However cancelling trips didnt work - the parents still didnt pay, so my Head refused to allow those that didnt pay go. As soon as Joe Bloggs Dad was told "You haven't paid, he can't go" he paid up. So now most pay & the few that can't (honestly) pay are subsidised by the school)

sorry clicked post before I had finished

You cannot exlude a child from any area of the curriculum (including trips which are used to support the curriculum)

The school is supposed to make provisions so that all children can access all of the curriculum.

It is illegal to exclude children from trips on grounds of SEN- your DS's behaviour problems(?) are most certainly a special educational need if they are preventing him from accessing any part of the curriculum.

Ask the teacher and the SENCO where he is on the Code of Practice- missing lessons/being withdrawn certainly constitutes School Action.

If your DS really cannot be included in the trip (and this should have been assessed prior to the trip with a risk assessment- ask to see a copy), then unfortunately nobody can go.

You've all been so supportive, thank you!

I'm not sure if DS is on School Action or not, he seems to have been on and off over the years. They tell me when he is on School action, but not when he isn't, if you see what I mean. Last time I looked he was.

He has no diagnosed SN, apart from anxiety. I'm finding it hard to see what he could get up to on the tip, as generally out and about he's much better behaved than most boys. I guess he could just walk off if he got upset, but that's a risk I would be prepared take, but I can see why the staff wouldn't want to.

I'm gong to see if I can speak to his teacher or the head tomorrow about it.

You don't need a diagnosis to have a Special Educational Need... School Action status is recognition enough.

They are simply not allowed to leave your son behind due to his behaviour- if he needs 1:1 support in order to go on the trip, they must provide it, otherwise nobody can go.

Unofficial exclusions are illegal.

If school say he can not attend then ask them to put it in writing with the full reason why. If this doesn't make them back down fast (and I expect it would) also ask for the reason for the constant exclusions from music, french and art lessons. I would start by verbally asking but say you will follow it up with the same question to the governors in writing if necessary.

Sorry you are going through this.

This is an absolute disgrace! this school is typical of the school my child attended you need to stand up for your childs rights. You need to be tough with the school once they know you mean business they wont try it on any more alot of primary schools try to pull the wool over parents eyes stating this and that its mostly just a case of them taking the easiest and cheapest way out. GET IT IN WRITTING FROM THE SCHOOL. insist on it or they back down. you should also contact the LEA and tell them whats going on if they refuse to take your child because of this.

Reminds me of the time dd's school rang up the night before the trip to the zoo to tell me that they had "forgotten" to book a minibus with space for a wheelchair so dd couldn't go. And the cowardly bastards got the supply teacher to ring me! Backfired, because she was a kindly woman and when she heard dd sobbing in the background, she caved in and managed to make new arrangements. These days I would have thrown the discrimination act at them.

If they are considering excluding him from a trip based on his behaviour then he blooming well should be on school action! How crap.

Bloody hell, Cory

And "has a volatile relationship with art"?!? Lynette - that sounds promising in an enfant terrible kind of way

Sorry, I don't mean to sound flippant, rather just to emphasise how ridiculous the school are being.

Clearly this won't fix the issues with the way the school are treating your ds, but is there any way you could go on the trip? I only say that because I've only managed to go on one trip in the 5 years ds has been at school and it was one of the best day's leave I've ever taken. OTOH I guess that would be letting the lame arsed teacher off the hook.

Hmmmm, I've excluded a child from a trip for behaviour reasons before. Well actually health and safety reasons, in the sense that with the child's behaviour we could not say he was safe outside school. I'd want to know exactly what the behaviour problems were. Weigh up the options and find out more, if your child is out of control with certain adults why do you want them in charge of him on busy roads or public transport where the risk of harm to him is potentially significant? I left a child for example who frequently ran out of the room if stressed/ angry. How could I ensure he didn't do this on a train/ bus/ in a crowded place. I liked the child, but didn't feel that we could with the adult/ child ration we had avavialble ensure his safety.

I'd be reluctant to support him too far in this situation and would tread carefully in just hearing one side of the story (I don't know if you have, but going on the onfo presented). I've had children in my class who I can manage in yr 6, but have had very very serious behaviour issues with supply teachers/ PPA cover, simply because I've had the time to build up a relationship/ respect with them. Most of them sadly have hit high school with tens of different teachers and have not been able to cope. If he was younger I'd be less worried, but only next year he'll be in a situation where he's expected to manage himself with a range of teachers and teaching styles. He can't argue next year that the teachers can't control him, he'll be quickly in a lot of trouble. Sadly each year I teach kids who I develop great relationships with and learn to behave in my lessons, yet don't transfer these skills to other adults. In the 4 years I've taught yr 6 EVERY year at least one child from the two classes has been expelled from high school before the end of year seven and numerous others have had fixed term exclusions. Don't blindly back one side or the other but do get the full picture and ask HIM what he's doing to help the situation, as well as asking the school what they are doing to support him. He will have to be a lot more independent next year in making the right choices in school to help him make a good start.

I'm not saying he's in the wrong, as I've said I've enjoyed working with a number of pupils that have behviourial issues with other staff. All I'm saying that next year he will have a lot of problems if he has difficulty with adults and both you, him and the school need to work equally to give him the best start possible. It makes me sad to see the amount of kids I have flounder at high school having lost 'their' teacher and the personal treatment they've had at primary.