Going to church to get DS into school?

[ChocOrange05]

I am not a Catholic, I was confirmed CoE but as a young teenager (because my friends were). I am not a religious person, I guess I would consider myself an Agnostic.

Anyway, DS is 17mo and I have been thinking about the whole schools debate and one of the best in our area is a Catholic school.

Is it wrong for me to consider going to church and getting DS baptised, just to get into a good school?

Has anyone else done this? What were your experiences?

TIA!

coll, see my earlier post. The issue is not class or ethnicity, but the effective exclusion of the most disadvantaged families.

Zephirine, Can I ask was your school private? Also not sure how long ago you were at school but in today's world running a state funded VC catholic school with 50% non catholic pupils would be very difficult and I fear they would end up running it as two schools as due to our 'human rights' non catholic pupils could opt out of all catholic lessons/activities. Also if the school does not have the support of 100% of the parents I cannot see how it could work and what the point of a school like this would be.

Coll, yes my RC school was private. On the other hand dp is not Catholic (his mum is vaguely C of E, his dad was an atheist) but went to an RC state primary school with no apparent problems either for him or the school. It is not unheard of.

VC schools have to admit pupils on the same basis as community schools so they certainly do admit children of other faiths. It's the VA schools which use their own admission criteria. Some admit a proportion of non Catholics, but in densely populated areas they usually demand weekly mass attendance etc.

Parents who strongly object to a Catholic ethos are unlikely to put an RC school down on their admission forms, so there is no reason why an RC school that is open to all should end up with a large number of unsupportive parents.

coll - your argument about looked-after children doesn't really make sense; if that was the case the non-baptized catholic kids wouldn't be on the list at all. And it doesn't explain the total absence of priority for special medical/social needs.

I really must step away from the computer but before I go

Grimma, with regard to non baptized catholic kids, they would still have birth parents who were catholic so therefore the rules re repecting 'looked after' children's heritage/religion would be ok. With regard to the absence of priority for special needs/social needs on the criteria, then I take your point and cannot explain why the catholic school does not give them priority. I would ask the school directly for an answer re this matter.

Zephirine, this thread was started because the op asked whether it would be ok sending her child to a faith school even though she did not believe the catholic teaching that would be practised and as we know there are many many people willing to do this so unfortunately I cannot agree with you that parents who have a strong objection to the catholic ethos would not send their child to a catholic school. Yes catholic schools do admit non catholics and they are normally placed way down on their criteria but it is normally only a very few in each year group if any. I do agree with you re the disadvanted children missing out because of their chaotic home life but this is our whole society's problem not just a catholic school problem. We need to address the breakdown of the traditional family in this country and get back to decent family morals. We can't force people dragging their heels to church it's a much bigger problem than this and that is why our government and our country needs to wake up and start doing something.

coll, I agree with you that the problem of disadvantaged children is not the responsibility of RC schools, but how on earth is it right that RC schools should be avoiding these children and leaving them for the community schools to deal with.

On your point about unsupportive parents, there is a huge difference between supporting the ethos of a school and actively converting to a religion. Dp's parents had no intention of converting to Catholicism but were happy to send him to a Catholic school because they liked the ethos and felt that the standard of education was good. Similarly, all the non-Catholic families that sent their children to my RC school.

There really is no justification for state funded schools excluding pupils on the basis of their parents' culture or beliefs.

Catholic state funded schools are abolished. Here's what the future might look like:

-no observable change in the affected schools for say 2 or 3 years;

• other state funded VA and VC schools such as Camden School for girls and others also loose contol of admissions (the miffle class trendies fight saying we are not like the Catholics but they loose the argument;

• the Catholic church diverts resources from teacher training on the current scale - diversity of teaching supply dries up;

• majority diocesan control of governing bodies gives way to GBs appointed by LEAs

• Catholics who are able go private switch to private Catholic schools. Some former state Catholic schools go private;

• non Catholics take up places in the old Catholic schools up to 100 per cent;

• non Catholics are happy for about two years and then start noticing the ethos that attracted them is waning;

• academic results may or may not be affected in medium term depending on postcode factor that applies today in state schools today - longer-term the changed purpose of the educational offer and absence of Catholic trained teachers slowly ensures that the education on offer ressembles other community schools;

• mumsnetters argue that it is not fair - private and grammar schools should be abolished or adopt the same admissions criteria as community schools

• by then it doesn't matter as Chinese, indians and S Koreans take the professional jobs that are still based in the UK.

15 to 20 years should do it - what are the other consequences that I have missed

I didn't notice anyone on this thread calling for the abolition of faith schools. Just that it would be good if their admission policies weren't discriminatory.

Most non-RC parents don't want their kids indoctrinated so you wouldn't be swamped.

Round here the RC schools just aren't that great anyway so I'm totally bemused by your dire predictions anyway.

Can I just say the the highest performing schools in my city (whether you look at league tables or Ofsted report or just general opinion) are certainly not faith schools.

So Quattro's post about "halfway decent education" is certainly not backed up by my experience.

My DC are in a school I rate highly - there are other primaries in the area that I also rate highly - none of these is a faith school.

There are Catholic primaries here and they are fine, but certainly not miles better than community schools in similar areas; the catholic secondary actually has a not-great reputation, both from results and word of mouth (a friend used to teach there and has some salty tales to tell!).

So it's not as clear-cut as some here believe. Thank goodness! as a faith school would not be my choice for my DC.

Choc, I think I have told you before that ds1 is at a lovely catholic school. I actually put ds2's name down the other day. Even though our boys aren't due for another 3 years.
I am really sorry, but I just can't see how this is going to work for you.

Choc i understand that you want the best for your child and if a catholic nearby is the best of course you want your child to attend that natural but by sending your child to a catholic school you are comitting your child to learn about god in a catholic faith. They will learn about other religion as well ie hindu, temple but your child will have daily prayers and all assemblies will have some aspect of god in it ie hymns plus in y3 your child will have to take the act of communion and reconcilation. Would you be happy with that. They do expect you attend weekly at church with your child. It is not rammed down your throat. I am a catholic through generation and geration and my children are catholic but my husband is not. At their school they go yearly visit to the hindu temple and attend different churches to learn and respect other religion but they are expected to learn their prayers. Some school have a low catholic intake so you may get into the catholic school without having to be a catholic but even where we live we have a high intake of asian, hindu and jewish and yet it still a strugle to get into a catholic school. We have to prove we attend church, we been baptised etc and you have to get a letter from the priest to apply. Regarding secondary school for catholic schools again depending on areas if you did not attend a catholic primary school and dont attend weekly mass (again another priest visit) you do not have much chance getting in. It the same with all faith school jewish etc.

I think it is fine to send your child to whichever school best fulfils their needs. You need to consider whether the catholic school will do that, regardless of its reputation.

The church schools round here are VERY full on with the religious angle and as parents we felt it important that we could earnestly get behind the ethos of the school.

It is the grossest hypocrisy to feign a religious belief where none exists, I wouldn't do it.

It depends on how much it would all bother you. We have a hugely oversubscribed CoE school in our village and I travel miles to go to the nearest state non faith primary as I feel very strongly against my children being indoctrinated in any religious way.

I have friends having kids coming back home talking about Jesus etc and having learnt songs-prayers, being taken to church etc...if that doesn't bother you then that's not a huge problem.

Zanzibarmum

alternatively here's what the future might look like if schools were not allowed to have religious affiliations:

• the state funding now going to catholic schools would be spent on expanding non-faith state schools in the area instead

• the majority of those sending their children to catholic schools would send their children to the local non-faith state school instead (many wouldn't be able to afford private)

• those parents would bring the community ethos/work ethic/whatever it is that their religion gives them to the non-faith schools, so those schools would improve

• (some) Catholic trained teachers would move to the local non-faith schools and so would bring any improved teaching abilities they have with them

Realistically no-one knows exactly what would happen if schools were banned from having a religious affiliation. There are many alternatives. The point is surely that it is not fair to have a state funded service which is only available to a certain faith, and it is also not right to have a state funded service teaching children that any particular religious belief is "right".

Does it matter if it's state funded when the families who pay tax and don't approve of religion can just choose another community school?

If you don't like the religion, don't go. If you want what good you can see religion brings to education (it is after all the only differential between the faith and community schools), try and implement it in the community school instead.

Riding off the coat tails of religious families commitment to their schools whilst complaining about the religious element of your children's education is bizarre behaviour.

Don't lie about who you are to get your children a 'good' school place. Take some of that commitment you obviously feel towards your child's education and pour it into the community school. Be part of what turns it into a better performing school!

I was amused when we went to visit our local catholic school on their open morning. last year 141 children (parents!) applied for 60 places, it is a very popular school so we were expecting the open morning to be heaving. When we got there there were only 5 other families there. When i asked the headteacher where they had advertised as i had seen it in our parish newsletter, she told me that they had only advertised it in the parish newsletter. I still bet it was seriously over subscribed this year too. DS got in btw.

'a long held myth in this country that children in catholic schools come from well to do middle class families' I dont understand this either I was educated in RC primary and secondary, my DD currently attends a RC secondary where kids are from all backgrounds majority not middle class or well to do.
TBH it is my impression that it tends to be CofE schools where kids are from middle class well to do backgrounds certainly judging by the 4x4's etc that go past our house to the C of E school down the road and also friend I have whose kids go there and the amount of out of school activities they can afford.

Toddlerama 'Does it matter if it's state funded when the families who pay tax and don't approve of religion can just choose another community school?'

I do approve of religion as it happens. I don't however approve of discriminatory admissions policies. It can't be that hard to understand.

On another thread, someone mentioned that in Scotland the faith schools don't have discriminatory entry now. And are apparently coping just fine.

That's basically true - anyone can go to a Catholic school in Scotland. However, if the schjool is oversubscribed, priority is given to Catholic children.

In reality, there are lots of Catholic schools (especially in urban areas in the West of Scotland), so very few schools are oversubscribed. This website gives more information about Catholic education in Scotland

For example, where I live there are 6 Catholic primary schools within a two-mile radius and 9 non-denominational primary schools. Our town (a large-ish town in the Glasgow commuter belt) also has one private "Christian" school, 2 Catholic secondaries and 3 non-denominational secondaries.

My children are not of school age yet, but the catholic school they will be attending (just across the road from us) has a few non-Catholic children. I don't know what the proportion of catholic to non-catholic pupils is, but when I was a pupil there were no non-catholic children in our primary. I don't know whether that was because of the rather nasty bigotry and sectarianism you can find up here but things are clearly different now.

If you opt to send your children to Catholic school, I don't think you can have them opt out of the religious parts of their education (other than formal sacraments like confession/communion/confirmation). Basically, if you want you child to experience catholic education, you take all of it - not just the bits you like.

Well that's true down here. There is no limit on the Catholic catchment area though. So if the school is good then non-catholics will not get in because Catholics from out of county and far away get the places. (And up until 2 years ago the LEA was paying for transport).

Glad to have stirred a debate, I hope tonights will be just as interesting!

Actually the best school in the area is a non-faith school but I was initially pondering whether "securing" DS a place in the next best school - a Catholic school, rather than take the risk would be a good idea.

But for one reason I am not going to do that, I will not lie to my DS about something I don't believe in. As I have said before I am very accepting of people's faiths but not being religious myself or believing in anything in particular I could not (and don't want to) pretend to DS I do, just to get him into school. That would be worse for his overall upbringing, I believe.

Good decision, Choc

'best' generally means full of middle class children. i.e. league tables really only reflect house prices.

You will find excellent teaching in most primary schools and you child should achieve the same in all. The sats results are an average, not what your child will actually achieve. So, my dd is at bottom of the league table school which has many deprived children. However, she is doing very well at the school and is further ahead than friends at 'better' school.

Even church of england schools do a not of religious stuff like weekly services. I would imagine a catholic primary would have even more.

So, I would only go to church to get my child into a faith school if it enabled them to go to the closest school. (Actually, I do go to church but not for school reasons)

Just to add, I send my children to the nearest school because to do anything else would teach them principles that I don't agree with. (and are contrary to Christian teaching)

1. It is best to avoid poorer and more disadvantaged children

2. That self-interest is more important than society

3. That children should be driven miles to school, impacting on their independence and the environment

4. That they will only do well if surrounded by lots of middle-class children