Going to church to get DS into school?

[ChocOrange05]

I am not a Catholic, I was confirmed CoE but as a young teenager (because my friends were). I am not a religious person, I guess I would consider myself an Agnostic.

Anyway, DS is 17mo and I have been thinking about the whole schools debate and one of the best in our area is a Catholic school.

Is it wrong for me to consider going to church and getting DS baptised, just to get into a good school?

Has anyone else done this? What were your experiences?

TIA!

I think Chibi is right, I don't think you can baptise a young child as a RC if at least one of the parents is already RC (Adults & older children can speak for themselves of course)

To become a RC yourself, you need to complete a RICA course, which takes many months.

Many popular RC schools do require baptism before x months old, weekly attendance at mass for y years etc, so you may already be too late - check the criteria.

Also there seems to be a lot more emphasis on the faith than in your typical CofE school, with the expectation that DS will do first communion, first confession, confirmation etc alongside his classmates, as well as comtinued regular attendance at mass (which is whatI think people were referring to as "religious expectations")

Then there is keeping the pretence up until you decide where to apply for secondary school (or risk your DS going to a school where he will know no one as virtually all the RC kids will go to a RC secondary if there is one nearby and it's not totally rubbish)

If you don't believe, can you really stomach all this?

Its such a shame that DS will not be able to go to a good school because of what I believe, and not based on his learning and ability to make up his own mind. Is this not just a form of prejudice against non-catholics?

Yes.

Can you imagine if the situation was reversed and baptised children of churchgoers got lowest priority at non-faith schools?

if unless at least - and you also need at least one RC god parent too

"WHen we applied we were not allowed to put down any school that wasnt a catholic school"

weren't "allowed" by whom? (schools don't know what others schools you've put down in your preferences, nor in what order you put them down)

They do when you have to give the forms for secondary in an unsealed envelope to the class teacher.

I could get very about this but life is too short!

Thanks for your responses, makes for very interesting debate - I don't think I want to make a commitment to lying to my DS about something I don't believe in myself. Which is a real shame, because I would never stop him from believing, I just don't myself. If only we could force all of our beliefs on our children!!

'If they allowed anyone in then they would no longer be catholic schools and therefore just the same as the other schools in your area.'

rainbowinthesky makes a good point. It's not as if catholic schools are all in the 'better' areas or have a wealthy intake. The only difference is whether you have faith or not isn't it?

So when Grimma said
'Can you imagine if the situation was reversed and baptised children of churchgoers got lowest priority at non-faith schools?'

The answer probably is that they'd fuss, and be told that those who wanted a secular education got priority. Same same. Would it make the school a 'good' school though, that parents would lie to get their children into?

I echo what other posters have said.

I would bear in mind if I were you that a Catholic School, while for sure very good for Catholics, is probably a bit errrm in your face religious if you are not.

I was in the nearest one to us for a training day and there were displays everywhere about "your first communion" etc etc.

Plus if you are not a genuine believer you may find yourselves excluded from the very church-family connection in RC schools.

Plus I think it's wrong to dissemble in this way. To get into Jewish school, CofE school, whatever.

"They do when you have to give the forms for secondary in an unsealed envelope to the class teacher. "

Aah so the bend break the schools admissions code?

Still might come in handy if you were in the position of needing to appeal

I am facing this with my daughter who will enter reception in September 2011. We are currently overseas (though I'm in London) so we have a slightly different bias.

I have no beliefs. In fact I believe you are worm food when you're gone and that is it. However, if I had to procure some document which stated that we all happily trotted off to a church of whichever denomination they desired, then I would have such a document produced.

I would not advocate this with some over the top god squad school who actually did want you beating a path to the altar each weekend but my research in the last two weeks shows that there are vastly different approaches to the level of religious piety which must be observed. Some merely require a non of the head to Christianity whilst others require your physical attendance. I am happy to consider the former but not the latter.

I tend to believe that men in dresses should be confined to the stage and university rowdiness rather than positions of moral superiority and pontification of their rules and commandments. However, I will suck their schools dry if it benefits my children.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. We are Catholic, we go to Mass weekly, we do teas and coffees after Mass, we are involved in the church, the priests and the nun who is the school liaison knows us well. Yet I still have to sign a form every Sunday to say that DD was there. She's only 2.3yo and won't even go to the school until September 2012. They know fine well who is there every week and who is playing the system. For every person that plays the system and gets through, there is a Catholic child who can't go to that school and receive the Catholic education that their parents pay for through their taxes and through money donated to the church. And I agree with the poster who said that if anyone was allowed to go to these schools, then they wouldn't be Catholic schools anymore, they'd be just like any other.

The other thing is, and although it has been pointed out on this thread, I don't think people really realise this, is that in a Catholic school, everything is steeped through with Catholicism. It's not like a C of E school where you could opt out of worship, this is everywhere and if you're not Catholic then how would you feel about that?

I concur with Rockbird, it is totally permeated with Catholicism, i am talking prayers all day, every day, at every break, before lunch, after lunch, church every week at least twice, mass said IN school, too - hymns daily.

It's inescapable and I so wish my parents hadn't put me through it as I didn't understand it, had no choice but to say all this stuff again and again without knowing what it meant, thus feeling a right fraud when I realised I actually thought a lot of it might well be tosh.

I don't call it education, I call it indoctrination, and I'm sorry to say that because I know a lot of lovely people who are catholic - but I don't agree with bringing up children to recite things they cannot possibly have any comprehension of.

Rockbird - I think part of the issue for non-catholic parents is that such schools are paid for with our taxes to, but there is no prospect of us getting our children into them.

There's a sticky thread going at the moment about setting up autonomous schools. Catholic schools would be a prime candidate. Take them out of the state system or have a ro-rata system of normal admissions in line with the amount of funding provided by the LEA.

In answer to the OP - don't do it, it's not worth spending years of your life pretending to be something you're not.

As long as faith schools are given money out of general taxation they should not be allowed to discriminate on the basis of religious affiliation.

While this massive injustice continues I see no ethical problem with faking religion to get around it.

I wouldn't do it myself, but I don't have to as I am a Catholic.

pro-rata obviously...

I can see that Goosey, but we pay a certain amount on top of that. A fair proportion of our school's funding comes from the church next door and that money comes from Catholics.

TBH I really can't see why you would want a non Catholic child to attend an RC school. I wouldn't send DD to a Jewish school no matter how good it was or if it was next door to my house, it just wouldn't occur to me. Would the OP send her child to a Hindu school with a fantastic reputation? (not being arsey, am trying not to be arsey on religion threads at the mo! )

I get that an additional contribution should give you an additional entitlement, but I personally would prefer to see faith school wholly funded by the appropriate church where they want to select pupils on grounds of faith. Anything else is just not fair for everyone else.

"As long as faith schools are given money out of general taxation they should not be allowed to discriminate on the basis of religious affiliation.

While this massive injustice continues I see no ethical problem with faking religion to get around it."

I agree, skidoodle, my problem would not be an ethical one with faking religion, my problem would be that my child would be indoctrinated into religion at school.

"I can see that Goosey, but we pay a certain amount on top of that. A fair proportion of our school's funding comes from the church next door and that money comes from Catholics."

I'm sure there are plenty of non-Catholic parents who would be willing to pay a little extra to get their children into their preferred state school. But they are not given that option, unless they are also Catholic.

Does make it sound a bit like a heavily state-subsidised more-or-less private school when you put it like that, doesn't it.

Having read the whole thread, I would be repeating what Rockbird said. For those of us who are Catholic, who support our local church and have faith, it is galling to see people 'playing the system' and denying genuine believers places at schools that they have paid for (on top of their taxes). A very large proportion of the money collected at church every week goes to the diocese for the support of the Catholic schools in that diocese. In fact, I think most priests know exactly who is in their congregation each week and who is playing the system.

The argument about whether it is 'fair' that religious schools exist in the first place is a different one IMO.

I wouldn't want my child going to a school where they were in a significant minority, and where they would not be able to fully participate in the life of the school - education is more than just learning to read and times tables.....

Just responding quickly to one post before DS gets home.. Rockbird I want DS to go a good school, and religion doesn't play a part in that for me - if it were a hindu, muslim, catholic, CoE or jewish school that wouldn't matter. That is in my simple world where everyone has their beliefs but also accepts other peoples - even if they don't have any! Having never gone to a religious school I am unaware of the expectations outside of school and the way of teaching the catholic (and others?) faith - understanding that a bit more now, I am not sure I want DS to be in an environment so focussed on one way.

Gotta go, DS is back - thanks for some very interesting perspectives guys!

Nice to have a thread where it's debated calmly. Good luck with whatever you do.

I love these threads as they demonstrate just what a narrow view some parents have as to the education of their DC - let's lie our way into a school with good results by getting the child baptised and keep up the pretence only as long as necessary ('once we are in do we have to continue to go to church').

Such parents attempt to bring disrepute on a system that has worked with for over 100 years. The good news is that a child cannot be baptised a Catholic without one or more Catholic parents.

I can see no government who will or even could abolish Catholic schools so rather think what it is about the Catholic's rounded view of education and bring this into the state sector - for a start there is such a thing as right and wrong and that the ends don't always justify the means.