How can I find / guarantee the best school for my daughter in / near London ?

[3point14]

Hi there,

We're returning to the UK for the first time since becoming parents. I have only my decades old experience of the UK education system and my partner is not from the UK and thus she has no experience of UK schools.

Our daughter will be 3 in July. I used to live in central London but I don't think that returning to a flat is a good move and I don't have £1m+ for a decent house in the middle of London. So we're looking at the London commuter belt.

We'll have to rent for a year or so before buying so we are literally free to live anywhere (within the bounds of reasonable cost).

Is it as easy as finding an area you like, picking the best school and then just renting or buying a house near that school ?

I see league tables such as www.guardian.co.uk/education/table/2009/dec/01/primary-school-league-tables-surrey but where do I find out how wide an individual school's catchment area is ?

What I'm trying to avoid is picking a decent house if we cannot get our daughter into the chosen school when we are in the possibly fortunate position of being able to take a house as near as required to the chosen school.

Without a support network we are finding this all very confusing and we would dearly appreciate your help. Thanks.

We found an area we loved (in SW London), moved here into a rented house (DS1 was 2 at the time) and then really got to know the area, which streets were good for which schools. By the time DS1 was ready for (school) nursery we knew all we needed to about getting him a place and where to buy a house.
DSs (now 7 and 5) are both happily settled in a fantastic school and we live in an area we love.
I would recommend renting first as it's so much easier to move if you find you're out of catchment for the best schools in the area you choose.

To find out how wide a school's catchment is:

On our local authority's website in the school admissions section, they show how many applications for each school and the greatest distances from the school of those given a place, if that makes sense. eg school A has 60 places and received 200 first preference applications. Out of those given a place, the furthest away was 0.3km.

OP you should (may already!) know that if yr DD is 3 in July, you will need to apply for a school place for her this autumn term ie 2010 - in some areas as soon as October (it's Dec in our LA but still pretty soon).

Just something to bear in mind in your search ie you may need to make a decision sooner than you might have liked.

When are you moving back?

Thanks for all the advice so far but please keep it coming. I'll try to address the points made in order.

We're going to have to rent for a couple of years as most of our capital is tied up in overseas businesses and we don't have access to 30% or 40% deposits which we'll need due to the contract nature of my work. A couple of good years should see us ok.

I looked at Epsom and surrounds as we have friends there but the commute is quite bad. Car, train, tube, another tube and about 90mins at best. I see Sevenoaks and Tunbridge Wells are around 30mins and 45mins with another 15 or so max on tubes. I'm fairly open though but I need easy access to Liverpool Street and Canary Wharf.

I have seen some listings about a certain school and what they offered and distances. I wasn't aware authorities did this so I'll look there. Thanks.

I'm over now trying to sort some things out but just have a short term rental flat in North London. The rest of the family won't be here until July I suspect or even August. It would be feasible to keep this flat on in the short term and then look and move but I do see how time can overtake us if we are not careful.

Apart from sorting the new work contracts out, my priorities are to get an understanding of this schooling thing and then get a family house organised. As you mention, there isn't really the option f test driving the area too much given the restricted timescale. It is really going to have to be a buy a car, drive around at weekends and do the best I can.

I am assuming there is a cut off date when they look at your location. It may be necessary to rent somewhere which fulfils the distance requirement and then look for another place afterwards. Is this the date in October and December which someone mentioned ?

Thanks for your help. I'm sure it was easier in my day (early 70s).

I think the best you can do is try to find an area you like, then look at the schools to find one you like (I'm assuming it's a state school you are looking for, as the address thing won't apply to private schools.) Find out when the deadline for applications is in the relevant LA then rent a house prior to that, as near as possible to your chosen school. It's even better if you like the next nearest school too, just in case you get your second option.

Bear in mind that some schools will be very oversubscribed and you will need to live practically on the doordtep to get in, as often siblings of existing pupils will have priority over you. The LA in question should give this information somewhere on their website. You often have to go into the primary admissions forms to find it.

I don't know how it would affect you if you were offered a place based on a certain address and subsequently moved before starting school, maybe someone else answer that one for you? Good luck!

Cut off dates vary by LEA - eg in Barnet its early Jan, Brent is early Feb although some LEAs are earlier.

To look at a schools catchment area look at the lea website - should have details for all the schools in that LEA. Even if you are in a catchment still no guarantee if there are others in the catchment with siblings or nearer, so if you are going to rent then rent v nearby.

2 or 3 form entry schools are easier to get into as 1 form entry schools can often have a year with 28 siblings and then 2 children whose houes border the school playground.

re: moving before you start can be a problem if you wouldn't have been offered a place at that address - safest to stay where you are (or move nearer) until she has started reception.

You do need to narrow down your area first - at least get an idea of which borough(s) to live in. As you need access to City and Canary Wharf presumably SE and E London or Kent/Essex. (Not sure why Epsom took 90 mins tho' - it's half and hour to Waterloo then 20 mins on the Jubilee to Canary Wharf - doable in an hour I'd say....). Bear in mind Kent still has the grammar school system, unlike most other boroughs so you need to be sure your child is bright unless you go private at secondary!

Once you narrows down an area check the schools - you can use Ofsted reports and league tables - but check out the caveats on various MN threads - nothing beats visiting. On-line resources such as Ofsted can be useful in eliminating schools tho' rather than selecting ones to visit. Aim to visit this summer term if the borough's applications have to be in in October. If they don;t gave to be in till after Christmas visit in the Autumn. Then check council website to find out exactly where you need to live to get into chosen school! Find house to rent. Simples!

Forgot to add - don't listen to letting/estate agents' info on catchment areas - take what they say with a pinch of salt and check it out for yourself!

If you are going to be working in the City or Canary Wharf or Central London, I suggest you look at renting in Ashford, Kent. There are lots of houses for rent and a good range of state and private schools. It's only 30min by high speed train to Stratford (for Canary wharf) and a further 7min to St Pancras. It's also twenty mins from sandy beaches, great countryside and Canterbury and 10min from the Channel Tunnel.

Lots of areas you need to have a fixed address by September - you need to get your skates on.

"2 or 3 form entry schools are easier to get into as 1 form entry schools can often have a year with 28 siblings and then 2 children whose houes border the school playground."

Not sure what you mean by 2 or 3 form entry. Surely everyone starts at 5 ? Have I missed something ?

As for Epsom, I agree that theoretically you can do it in X minutes but the practicality of getting to Liverpool Street in rush hour makes it a much harder commute. I'd put it as a good hour minimum over Sevenoaks each day and there is only Waterloo whereas Sevenoaks has Charing Cross, Cannon Street, London Bridge and Waterloo. Still, it remains on the potential list.

Just done some telephoning around today and the consensus seems to be that she will start in September 2011. With that in mind, the various submission dates begin in late 2010 through to early 2011. In some ways that is ideal as she will come over in the summer and we can use the summer months to find a property before making the application towards the end of the year.

I know some may think we are doing things back to front but I suspect we can find decent places to live in any respectable location. Inner city problems are left far behind and as we have no first hand knowledge of any commuter area, focussing on the school, transport, reasonableness of accommodation etc. seems the best we can do.

I suppose I'll have to go buy a car in the summer and drive around but that is ok and not too difficult. I suppose we'll get half a dozen locations, all mapped out with details and hit them week after week until we find something. With the net and email, agents can be engaged without having to even visit them.

I feel I am turning the corner in understanding what the process involves so thanks a lot. There is still some way to go though

Kent has state grammar schools, and there are particularly good ones in Tunbridge Wells and Tonbridge. Sevenoaks always used to be in the catchment for Tonbridge Grammar, but you might want to check this out. If you are free to live anywhere around London, it isn't a bad idea to move somewhere where there are potentially lots of good free schools (and also plenty of good fee-paying ones, if your DD fails to get a free place).

A one-form entry school is one that has one class of (usually) 30 kids in each year group and about 230 kids overall, a two-form entry school will have two parallel classes of 30 for each year and approx 450 kids overall. You get three- and four-form entry schools as well, but they are rare in London.

You also get schools with one and half classes per year group ie an annual intake of 45 or 75 dc. This means that some kids will be in mixed-age classes.

Other things being equal, a larger school will have a bigger catchment cos they have 60 (or 90 or whatever) places available, whereas a one-form entry school only has 30 places, some of which will go to siblings.

[simples]

North London (where I think you said you are at the moment) has some good state schools - look at Barnet and harringay ( west of the borough Highgate, Muswell Hill, Crouch End0.
Also check out religious schools if you practise any religion, Jewish,RC and C of E schools usually perform well.

Travel is not too bad with either Northern Line or BR lines into Moorgate.

3point14 I repeat, make sure you check application dates carefully.

Where I live, the closing date for primary applications is December 1.

In some places it's a lot earlier. For secondary here (not your worry yet I realise!) it's actually mid October.

I am just concerned about your phrase making application "towards the end of the year" - wouldn't want you to miss out because of a delay!

Also a lot of schools have open days which are nice to attend, usually in Sept/Oct. HTH

From Epsom, you can get direct trains to Waterloo, Victoria, and London Bridge. DH commutes from here to Canary Wharf every day - cycles to station, train to Waterloo, tube or cycle to CW. In Surrey, the end date for reception school places for 2011 will be mid-October, so you'll need an address (and be on the council tax register as they ask for the account number) by then.

We found www.aboutmyplace.co.uk very useful - it gives maps with school on, with links to ofsted/school results etc.

The Good Schools Guide website has a useful catchment area map. You'll need to put in a postcode first so it's more useful once you're looking at specific properties. It won't be exact and it's best to double check with the LA first, but it will give you an idea.

There is an option to buy a subscription on the website to see the actual catchment map, but I'm not sure that will be any more useful than the LA's brochure (which will normally be on their website).

re: north london: we live in hendon and used to live in east finchley.

both around 1 hour and 5 mins to CW and 45 mins to Liverpool street via northern line.

Brookland school in HGS is a fantastic state school (3 form entry) but houses in catchment area (northern part of hampstead garden suburb) are not cheap, although lots for rent. our old house was in catchment area and only 7 mins walk east finchley station.

muswell hill/crouch end are not that good for travel as no tube line. hendon is not great for schools unless you want a faith school.

Our application date was by Oct 6th so please check.

Most children start school aged 4 not 5.

So much to thank you for so please accept my collective thanks.

I understand the 2+ form entry now. Seems logical when it is explained.

As to dates, I see some will take applications from as early as September and close perhaps in the October so you are right, we have to get the ball rolling.

I used to live in Angel and work in Liverpool Street. I could be at my desk within 20 minutes on a good day. I really have to decide how far I can commute. I never really thought I'd have to face the decision to commute but inner city life is so bad. Mega priced enclaves such as where Boris Johnson live are ok but I'm staying in Edmonton in North London at the moment and I'm sorry, but you wouldn't want to bring a kid up here.

If it is any help, here's what I've learned so far.

If the school you want is age 4 to 11 then fine, you need only fulfil the criteria once but if your school is 4-7 and you then have change to a 7-11 school, then you have to fulfil two criteria. That might be because some have feeder schools but if they don't and you don't fit stringent (not all are strict) religious criteria, then you are down to the distance lottery and if the school is oversubscribed, then you need to not only be near the 4-7 school but also the 7-11 school or you'll have to move ! Radical for sure but that is how it reads.

Some data is available online but not enough. What you need is at least 2008 and 2009 data to see whether schools are becoming more popular. One I looked at had a 2008 distance of 1.3km but by 2009 this had reduced to 0.7km. Preferences were up and siblings were near static so it is almost inevitable that the 2010 distance will be less than 0.7km.

In one area, I've found what look like excellent schools with great facilities. Of course they need to be visited but it might mean I have to take a 6 month (12 with break) tenancy at a much higher rent than I want to pay just to satisfy admissions criteria and be like 0.1km from the school and guarantee acceptance, and then move nearer to the 7-11 school and a better rent, until we buy maybe in a year or two. Unfair ? perhaps but so is life. That option is available to everyone in theory.

Thanks for the places to live ideas. Looking at a map is nothing compared to hearing about someone who lives there. If anyone wants to know about living in Angel, Pimlico or Earls Court/Kensington, then pleas do ask.

My intuition says to go take a serious look at Farnham. However, I can't ask the missus to drive me to the station at 06:30 each morning but adding another car just to dump it at the station seems terribly excessive, not to mention expensive. Then add on an hour to Waterloo and a couple of tube rides and I have a 90 minute commute which eats up another £4000 or so in train fares.

I contrast that with living within walking distance of a train or tube line and not needing a second car.

Thanks again and I'm sure I'll come back with more.

If you are in Edmonton you could try a trip out to Muswell Hill on the 102 bus. If you look at the area close to Alexandra Park you are within walking distance of BR station with trains to Moorgate (approx 20-30 minutes) and have a good primary plus two good faith schools you could consider.
Altho' Muswell Hill does not have a tube, on the side near Highgate Woods you can walk to Highgate in about 10 mins or get a bus and there are buses to Piccadilly line tubes as well.
In some ways you are lucky to have the flexibility to rent as you can - although I can see that in this case there is almost too much choice.
Best advice would be to choose a general area and then study the schools in detail.

Farnham great schools, cheap(ish for SE) houses but terrible commute I wouldn't want to do that any day.

Kent is the best place for that side of London. Farnham completely wrong direction. I would look at Guildford and north of it too - fast service into Waterloo.

3point14, have you looked at Kingston upon Thames? It's 25 minutes to Waterloo, then the jubilee line east. it's a brilliant area, with riverside parks, Richmond Park, great shopping (plus big cinema, bowling, restaurants etc) and fantastic schools. Houses are pretty pricey (you'd be looking at spending around £400,000 for a decent three-bed in north Kingston) and the schools have been very oversubscribed but they're adding classes to some of the best schools so there will be more places available.
Surbiton is another area you could consider - it's close to Kingston and all its facilities but it's got a fast 10-minute train service to Waterloo, which would make your commute really quick. I don't know the schools well but they're generally very good.

We live in St Albans which is a really quick train to St Pancras of 20 mins. Houses here aren't cheap but the local schools are brilliant.
Just a thought. I'm not sure how much money you are looking at spending on a house.

re: the point about renting near school - and 6 month break clause - you need to rent from the date of application until the date your child actually starts reception, which is likely to be a whole year.

also often the distance given is often on first round places, some more children will get places on 2nd round.

re: the 7-11 schol, all depends, some give priority to children in their feeder infant school.