Tell me all the negatives about kumon maths!

[iamnotaprincess]

ONLY the negatives please!!!

Oooooo Kumon used to use my classroom after school. I hate them with a vengence. Teaching children with no concept of number/ place value column addition before they understand how to add simple mental sums etc, mistakes everywhere and so hard to undo. For children who are having difficultly they can cause a whole host of misconceptions which take ages to unpick. I got sick of seeing stuff like 77+77=1414 (no carrying ones or columns used..)using the column method in class from children who just couldn't get WHY that could not be the answer. Plus I'd watch the cheek of them getting paid to 'teach' whilst they sat at the front in front of rows of silent kids spanning 5 year groups doing worksheets they marked from the answer sheet. They have total disregard for what the children have/ are learning in class and will happily introduce yr 5 objectives randomly before yr 3 objectives so children don't have the prior knowledge to actually understand the written methods they are drilled in. Really. Urgh. Bloody boring too.

On the other hand mathletics is great, won it free for my whole class for a year once -got them to answer 10,000 sums in a week!!!!

There is a free site called www.tutpup.com though which offers very similar games to mathletics which my class love, though it doesn't have any of the report/ tracking facilitics.

We love tutput. Grandson is home educated and we use it as a warm-up every day. We also use Carol Vorderman's The Maths Factor.
He used to go to Kumon and hated it with a vengeance. They had boys from the sixth form who used to come in and help the kids and listen to their times tables and they would sit and snigger when a kid got something wrong.
Room was too full of children.
The woman who ran it was a tyrant.
It was expensive, boring and repetitive.
And it was a 20 minute trip on the bus to the nearest one.

My class love tutpup (y5).

I think people are brainwashed by the curriculum - personally, I see no benefit in teaching chunking and partitioning etc for years and years. Often children understand this very quickly, yet they are not moved on to fun and quick maths, or exploratory maths, and thus maths becomes laboured and boring. Talk of introducing year 5 objectives before year 3 objectives as if it were something written in stone, by law, just makes me laugh. The maths teaching in the state sector is generally pretty poor. And very very rigid. It doesn't suit everyone to be restricted by the curriculum and to say the only accepted way of teaching maths is that in the curriculum is clearly ludicrous.

I have started DSs at Kumon. They have always loved maths and always been very good at it. Kumon has not been boring in the slightest. In fact, it very neatly incentivises them. And they have never complained about it - quite the opposite in fact - even today I got "oooh we are doing those subtractions".

The only negative is telling people, because they are often so very judgmental of your decision to do Kumon. Images of competitive mothers etc etc. and no time taken to understand why you may be doing it. DSs go because the maths teaching they get is generally from people who don't particularly care about maths (the leader of this Kumon centre most definitely does get maths) or by teachers who are pulled from pillar to post and do not have enough time to spend on maths. Also they have natural flair for maths (have always been on G & T register etc etc) and IMO you don't get really good at something without practice (and FWIW I don't think you get enough practice with the curriculum pressures on teachers - there simply is not enough time spent on maths)

BTW it is not true that there is no problem solving with Kumon - there is.

"and FWIW I don't think you get enough practice with the curriculum pressures on teachers - there simply is not enough time spent on maths"

Oh come on. We spend an hour a day on Maths - how much more do you want?

I shall ignore the rest of the post, it's late - but have you even read this thread, Ladyblablah?

I have read yes and I presume you are a teacher ?

I am - I would say all of the children I teach have access to 'fun and quick Maths', and 'exploratory' Maths - I would argue that Kumon is repetitive and boring, not Maths in the curriculum.

I could think of much better ways to stretch, challenge and excite an able and gifted mathematician that Kumon - but at least your children enjoy it.

It is a poor solution for children who have failed to grasp earlier concepts though - you may laugh at strawberry kate's post, but her example of where Kumon falls down is typical, and very relevant to children who struggle.

than Kumon

They do matheletics too

And tutpup

It is all about variety ? They see it from many different angles, which is why I say that the curriculum is not the only way. And whatever sort of teacher you may be, unfortunately the majority of teachers I have encountered have more pertinent problems in a class room than to spend individual time with someone who is not struggling and definitely do just get worksheets, generally not tuned to their level of working. (I understand this and so have chosen to do something about it)

10 minutes a day for a worksheet makes the rest of the stuff they do easier and more enjoyable it seems.

I can only comment on what is right for my DSs. And a blanket " Kumon is shite" is simply not true.

Totally agree with you about variety. I very rarely use worksheets, and definitely not just keep able children busy - that's appalling practice. I would have issues with your school's Maths teaching too - not sure I would be so understanding.

Rarely use worksheets?

Blimey, not my experience at all

6 months ago, the enthusiasm of DS1 particularly was going - "I hate maths" was creeping in, and that was scary because he genuinely is pretty good at it.

Now, all I see is a new found enthusiasm for maths. It might not last forever.....but they have a very clear path - getting 50 stickers and then getting £1 is amazingly powerful (£1= 2 x MatchAttax packs to them), moving up through very clear levels and seeing themselves improve on the times etc. really has given them pleasure.

As I say, it might not last, but they bounce in and love achieving there.

I work in an infant school and some worksheets are used - but they are not generic ones, they are made by the teacher for specific groups, and differentiated. Snd much of the maths is not worksheet at all in the sligthest.

DD is in Y3 and agan, not many worksheets used.

By LadyBlaBlah Thu 08-Apr-10 22:51:06
Rarely use worksheets?

Blimey, not my experience at all

sorry I'm not clear do you think schools should be using more worksheets or do you think they use too many?

Hmmm, whilst it's nice to finally hear that someone got something out of Kumon I will say that years of observation of Kumon and children led me to pretty clear conclusions. Able children in my experience will though succeed and progress regardless of the methods thrown at them, be it expensive or cheap. If you have the spare cash and they like it why not. However, I would advise against the programme for anyone who has a child who is struggling or who doesnn't have the cash.

Personally I wouldn't see it as to rigid to expect a child to be able to add single digits mentally before introducing written methods. It's fine if a child is ready for yr 5 objectives in year 3, and any decent teacher would give them work relating to them, but there needs to be some sense of progression and order in gaining maths skills or any skills. It's akin to teaching a child about the function of commas before they know they must turn the pages of a book in order. The knowledge is as good as useless to them. It's more common sense than an issue of following a curriculum.

LadyBlablah you say "The maths teaching in the state sector is generally pretty poor." How do you know this? What evidence do you have? I been into loads of primary maths lessons and saw lots of excellent teaching. The teaching is completely different to when I was at school and I didn't see anything terrible. I am a secondary Maths teacher and have seen lots of excellent teaching there also. There are a very few poor teachers in primary and secondary but they are very much the exception. I wish children did understand chunking and partioniong very quickly as I wouldn't then have to teach it in year 7 and 8 and 9 and 10! Gifted mathematicians will achieve on Kumon as they love to do it. At that age I would have loved it too. If you have the money and they enjoy it then that is fine. BTW there is no eveidence that continual repetition of low level questions helps children learn. A bright child you gets it will get no more benefit from doing 10 or 50 question rather than 5. I do think there is issue though that it doesn't adaquately support those who need more help. It is also very dependent on the quality of the centre leader. As are all franchises. I think there is general problem that businesses are perpetuating the myth that primary children need more education outside of school.

Earlybird - switch the country to England on Mathletics
IMHO I have kicked myself, DD done Mathwhizz since P1 and loves it,( school insists we use mathletics for homework modules but I dont think this is half as good as mathwhizz) and she is in top set for maths. however now school is doing timed tests and no prizes for guessing the children who fly through them... yes the Kumon kids.
DD now feels she is underachieving and feels she is poor at Maths.
I appreciate all the arguments re Kumon but I wish I had considered timed tests as part of the learning process to help DC.
Whilst it may not be the best learning system in the long run there is no questioning the results in the early years of primary when rote number bonds/divinding/multiplication is required.

"Whilst it may not be the best learning system in the long run there is no questioning the results in the early years of primary when rote number bonds/divinding/multiplication is required."
This may be while lots of children I know go from being top at primary school to being in lower sets and secondary, and those in lower sets suddenly find themselves in top sets? I myself had a term where my maths teacher thought I was bad at maths, because I couldn't recite my tables fast. He then got a shock as I was well ahead of everyone else (having been taught some adanced topics at primary school).

Mummytime - I really hope so, but getting over to DD that just because she isnt as fast as the kumon kids doesnt mean she is poor at maths its a tough one for us at the moment.
Her teacher supports this viewpoint but as a child its hard to comprehend.

Is there much of a difference between tutpup and mathletics? Dd has done tutpup and though she enjoyed it she wasn't crazy about it (didn't think of going back to it unless prompted by me) so I was wondering if Mathletics offered a better (more of a fun experience for children?) experience than tutpup? Is it worth the fee?

Do children get money as rewards for doing Kumon?? Seen a post above and was wondering.

Only if the parents give them

mummytime; I'm just like you

My mental arithmetic has never been good but as soon as maths started getting 'proper' I flew.

Ended up with two A-grade maths A-levels and a engineering degree from Cambridge.

Mental arithmetic better now!

GraGra feck off with your spam

:o toomanyoddsocks

I was coming on to post politely to GraGra that advertising spam is against talk guidelines and that there is a fee for advertising goods or services.

Oh and that I've reported the spamming to MNHQ :)