Have the Y2 SATs started already then?

[violetbloom]

I'm not making a big deal of it. Just dd mentioned today that they did a 'very hard' maths test at school and I wondered if this was a SAT? I kind of thought they'd do them after Easter.

Cortina, I know your school works like that. And so, it seems, does Makeitawhiskey's. But it isn't the norm - you won't find a single teacher on MN who works like that, I promise you, because it is bad practice.

How do you/they do it? Thanks. I've had the impression it is the norm looking at threads on the internet etc and from talking to friends.

By setting work which is precisely matched to the child's current attainment, based on what they need to know next - regardless of where they are sat.

Really? My perception is that most ability group threads on Primary contain posts by teachers who say they ensure they do this - and the odd op whose school scandalously comes out with phrases about room on tables, such as you and Makeitawhiskey.

I'm just trying to think of a reason WHY a school/teacher would want to keep children in a group where the work does not match their ability, there is just no point to it. All that would happen is that the children become disinterested and frustrated, not exactly the recipe for a happy and productive class. The teacher would be creating MORE work not less and totally defeating the object of assessing children in the first place! Children do not come in little "bunches" of 6 children all of the same ability.

primary mum and Feenie sounds like you operate my ideal scenario - rolling out the curriculum to suit the individual child?

Don't most classrooms have rough ability groupings that are fairly static in practice? (and then make differentiations between pupils of broadly similar abilities - if that makes sense)?

I'm not arguing that classes don't have ability groups ( although there are some that don't and all work is carried out at home tables) but it is the "static" that causes problems. Groups CAN'T be static, they should change from subject to subject, topic to topic and day to day. A child isn't uniformly good, or bad, at everything, they will have strengths and weaknesses and these need to be reflected in the work they are asked to do. As an example, we have been writing balanced arguments in our literacy this week but I have identified a small number of children-from across all my ability groups-who have really struggled with identifying opposing views. So yesterday they worked with me on this point in an effort to overcome this difficulty before moving on. I have a very bright boy in my class ( level 5 writer already and he's only in yr 5!) but he has a blind spot over spelling certain words so he has spent some time this week in a small group of children with similar problems, including some from my lowest ability group who are comparatively good spellers but struggle on the same type of words. My groups change all the time-including mid lesson! the majority of teachers I know would work in a similar way, it is teaching to the children's ability and needs which is what we are expected to do!

Couldn't have said it better than primarymum, she is absolutely right.

Groups in my dd's class change regularly. For one thing they frequently do things at 'mixed ability' tables where everyone is jumbled up randomly. But also in their fixed groups. Dd has stayed at the same table for literacy and reading but has moved within 3 different groups for numeracy - once at a table 2 groups lower than her literacy table. I think each time the teacher does an assessment, she shifts people around. Although dd's stayed at the same literacy table, two or three others have come and gone over the course of the year.

I would question though why anyone thinks their child is consistently being set work that is a lower standard than they think they can achieve. How would you know this? None of us know how our children achieve whilst in the classroom. Why not ask to see some of your child's work at parent's evening and if they're consistently always getting everything totally right, you could justifiably ask for more challenging work?

I know for a fact that at home dd does much better at mental sums than she does in the classroom because of conversations with the teacher and seeing her work at school. But the teacher has to go by what she sees dd doing, not what I see her doing at home.

Yes, I see what you mean violetboom and primary mum/Feenie what you are doing sounds wonderful and I couldn't agree with you more! I completely agree that being slow in reading or writing doesn't automatically mean your arithmetic is at a similar level etc. Is the system I am describing more of an old fashioned system? Certainly it reminds me of how the classroom was structured in the 70s in my primary.

In my primary school we didn't have 'ability tables' at all. The teacher just taught the whole class. We sat at individual desks, in alphabetical order, boy girl, boy girl, so we couldn't talk. Not very friendly. Looking back I do wonder how they coped with the fact that children are all learning at a different pace.

DS has progressed really well over the last few months and teacher admitted he was now more midddle group for literacy than bottom. So I asked when he will move into that group.Was told he won't as there would be too many boys in it !? So has to stay where he is.

Oh ffs, how ridiculous. Is the work he is set the same as the middle group?

I agree with Feenie
Cortina I have never come across a school that works in the way you describe (thankfully).
My groups change from lesson to lesson (I like to keep them on their toes )
Last week I had 3 groups of 10 children for science and 1 group of 30 children for art and groups of 9 - 7 -4 - 2 groups of 4 and a group of 2 for literacy - my tables move and so do my children and even the nice man from OFSTED moved.

How did it go, mrz? We were also Ofsteded 3 weeks ago - my Smartboard broke on the very first day, I still can't believe it did that to me. It went very well though, thankfully.

Our internet went down for 4 hours the first day and I had intended to use a presentation so had to do a quick re think but everything went well and now we can get on with teaching for a few years.

Yes, that's our overwhelming feeling too - I had to do a quick rethink aswell, was very stressful but all went well (even if I was ever so slightly sweaty!)

Pleased to hear you survived and all went well

I think you teachers are fantastic! Honestly, it would be great if my DS was in one of your classes enjoying your fluid systems of teaching.

My experience is that primary schools in my town do set, and do so rigidly. My son has been to two schools. I have friends with children at other schools. The system applied is the saem. Children sit at their set tables for numeracy, literacy etc and rarely move between them.

It also seems that the testing at the end of the year (and the flurry of teaching assessments that go with it) are the only time teachers pick up on what children are really doing.

So, whereas I am quite prepared and happy (!) to accept that some schools don't run inflexible systems, unfortunately, the reality is that others do.

Wow - do teachers really do that grouping thing where they group children according to places available at tables? I have only been teaching for 3 years and only have experience of 4 schools, but I have simply never heard of that happening. The school I work at is in a severely deprived area and the children often come in at an incredibly low level. By the time they reach me in year 1 they have made huge progress, but are still largely below average. Because of the huge difference in rates of progress we set for maths and literacy, and phonics across years 1 and 2 so 4 classes are jumbled up into 8 groups. Otherwise there is simply no way we could meet the needs of all of the children - the real high achievers would get stuck and so would the less able bones.

I just can't imagine that children in this day and age can be put on a table and be expected to stay there all year for whatever subject. That is not good teaching and I am surprised that is allowed to happen anymore.

As for the level 3 issue, we have just been moderated in year 2 and have had our judgements approved, but we only had one level 3 and that was hard-fought. It is not an easy judgement to defend sometimes - as someone said above, the curriculum hasn't been covered yet.

oh - plus - assessment for learning is key - and a massive focus in Education at the moment. The idea that the tests at the end of the year are the only time teachers pick up on what the children are doing is, frankly, shocking. Assessment is constant and children are frequently moved and reassessed. Otherwise, how can you plan what to teach next, or what to go over again? Does this really go on?

Ludicrous, isn't it. As if the tables are bolted to the floor!

We assess throughout the year.

However, we are administering SATs in weeks 5 and 6 after Easter hols, and week 2 of the term after May half term.

HTH.

"the tests at the end of the year are the only time teachers pick up on what the children are doing is, frankly, shocking"

It is, I know. This is what worried me when I heard of so-called 'optional SATS' at DS's school from Yr3 onwards. Externally marked etc. Why do teachers not trust their own judgment on 8 year olds?

I know this year that the children in DS' class have been moved once. DS has a working diagnosis of ASD so notices anything different! I know mums have complained about their children being on the so-called 'bottom table' when they have been working at home to help them and have witnessed considerable progress which appears to have passed the teachers by.

These goups are not fluid and children know where they are in the 'pecking order'. A friend of mine helps in the class and was told by a little girl 'only the clever children can sit at this table because we need special work'. Her son has learning difficulties and is in the same class and she was really down about how rigid and defined it all was .

This is an Ofsted outstanding school and the head is a national leader in education so I think about Ofsted judgments to be frank.....stats, stats and more stats. And I say that as someone whose friend is an HMI!!

are sats ks1 marked by the school and is there the chance of false marking to boost the school. my ds teacher told me 10 days ago he will begrade 1 after me having a fit the head teacher told me today he is predicted to be 2b's.

The LEAs moderate the assessment process, and Ofsted inspect it.