Tuition from year one and grammar school chances

[squashpie]

Couldn't think what else to call this question. DS is in year 1. He seems to be in top third in the various subjects. A few of his classmates have tuition/ kumon, which I'd always been dead against. Now I've discovered today that two of those tutored/ kumoned kids have extra maths to stretch them because they are clearly excelling.

We live in the London area and competition for grammar schools is fiercer than fierce and the local non-selective state schools are dire. It is our dearest wish that, if he were capable, DS would get into a grammar school. But how much of an advantage are the tutored/ kumoned kids getting. Will they be that far ahead when it comes to 11+? I've read on here that pupils level out but I can't help thinking that those who are so far ahead they are getting extra maths because they are already ahead of their year group are just going to maintain that lead. Do non-tutored but bright kids get into grammar school at 11?

Sorry for long post.

bbc web page - click education - 2009 league tables there!

For A level results 2009 Tiffin was 10. The other school is higher.

not much higher than my kids schools - looking at scores

bear in mine some schools sit kids for 6 and 7 A levels which pushes scores up...

our schools 'up north' do not put a distance restriction on intake - making no bones about ' if you are good enough and can get there you are in' this enrages locals but makes standards high

none of my 3 have had tutors and there is NO WAY on earth i would dream of coaching my year two baby boy for an exam he will take in year 6

ds3 ( october birthday) started work for the exam in summer holiday of the year- he took the test early october.

I just think lots of parents must be pushing totally inapproriate students into these schools.

'mind' ( lost first post so probably loads of typos from a screeching mcbitchy sorry!)

I don't know what happens in London, but I'm Kent and ds1 should be going to the grammar next year. He's yr 5 and I started tutoring him in January for the VR because his literacy is good but nowhere near as good as his maths. As for Sats I can't imagine a level 4 is grammar level.. he's 5's now and his friends are all top 4's and 5's.
Also do the school not do CAT tests?
In yr 4, they school (state btw) did VR and NVR and advised us if they thought they were grammar or not
beginning of yr 5, they did the CAT's and we get the results in the next couple of weeks. From that the school tells you if they are going to support your application, and go to appeal should there be a problem.

Ingles2, from what I have read on the 11+ forums, you are lucky that you are in Kent. I think they have the most grammar schools left in the country, and many state primaries provide some help to pupils preparing for the test. In other areas of the country, the state schools are not interested, giving the prep school pupils an enormous advantage.

seems that way Claig... my friend lives in Dulwich and I was amazed when she said her dd1 had to go to the potential school to sit the exam with all the other candidates. My son will take the test at his primary school during an normal school day.

yes seems you have a great council in Kent. I hope your son flies through it. I am glad you are coaching him, because most others are being coached.

my ds passed his 11+ this year and has never had any tutoring, no practise at school (they refuse to be involved) and no practice at home as he didn't want to. It was his choice to take the test and he passed . majority of the children in his large junior school took the test and only a handful passed.
it is possible to pass the 11+ without tutoring

Our kids did one set of NEFR papers in mid yr 5, then they did the test IN school in Sept. My dd also took an independent test for another grammar, due to some quirky archaic system it takes kids thru the Kent test AND/OR it's own. She sat that at that school at a weekend. And left her coat there

NO help from her school, no coaching, no clubs no nothing.
Saying that, around 75% usually go to grammar, but my dd's year are what's know as an "unusual group" LOL so may be bit less.

our dcs had to sit the test at an out of town hotel because the numbers applying were so high and iirc the 'in area' pupils all sat it another day...

i agree with posters on here on the whole

no one can convince me coaching from year 2 or 3 does anything but rob kids of time they should be climbing trees

In an ideal world, children wouldn't be coached for grammar exams. In the real world, I don't blame parents for getting their children tutored as they are only trying to do the best for their children and trying to bridge a perceived disadvantage (other children getting tutored, private school children sitting grammar exams).

I went to a fee paying secondary school with an 11+, no grammar schools in the area. My primary school head did after school exam paper practice which almost the whole class stayed for. Loads of kids sat the exam knowing their parents weren't going to send them to the fee paying school, it was for the experience. I was lucky to be at a small village primary with the care of that head. But I don't think we did it for years before only months.

I do agree that I would rather have a happy child not struggling in a non grammar school, that a miserable coached on in a grammar. But the way the tests should be should be able to test their abilities not just the coaching.

Although one of the schools had already done one of the papers at the exam I sat, they were randomly picked and they had also done practice ones. Just luck of the draw.

Although we then had to have an interview with the head to be offered a place. I will never forget how relieved I was I'd watched newsround that week so could talk about the shuttle disaster.

You know, my dd will be fine in literacy based classes, I wouldnt push her there or appeal if I didn;t think so - and most importantly - if her head teacher didn't think so too. She is in an advanced literacy group as she was put into yr6 lit last year - so I know she'll be fine. WHat she has had help with was maths, her maths was average - needed to pick that up a bit, she has now and has sustained it alone (without tutoring for last 6 months).
I went to the grammar, I was in top groups for anything writing based, languages etc but bottom set (out of 8 :D) for maths - ce la vie! SHe can't excel at everything.

It is an exam - get him tutored to pass the exam when the time comes.

Who knows if the extra work at this age actually works or not?

Your dc though will become bored with being tutored for all those years and there aare a lot more excitingthings to do when you are 5

ime it is the 'private school children sitting exams' who have been the ones to struggle at the grammar schools - again maybe down to coaching

Managed to get 1st child in to highly competitive grammar school(was also offerred academic scholarship at an independent school) 4 years ago and 2nd child has recently "passed" the 2 grammar school exams.

5 years ago, When i heard at the school gates that some kids were being "tutoured", we decide to hire a private tutor one hour/week for 6 months with an "ex engineer" who now earns a living providing home tutouring for 11+ and GCSE maths and Physics.

We decided not to pay for tutouring for the 2nd child as from previous experience decided all the child needs is consistent support to ensure child is encouraged to develop a love for learning at home(which i will recommend for any child irrespective of future school destination(selctive or non selective) as i believe once they get a solid foundation at an earlier age it is much more easier at secondary school level.
I have always supported the children with homework at an early age by getting involved (encouaging reading(various books of interest,20-30 mins daily independent bed time reading or practice of Bond assessment papers etc from WHsmiths(English ,maths, verbal reasoning) from year 4.
My Children attend(ed) independent primary school and whilst some may argue that privately educated kids have an advantage ,however not all does who attend the same school pass the highly competitive grammar sch exams (even those who have been "heavily tutoured" for several months!

Tutoring at year 1 or 2 does not necessarily mean stress and pressure. Good tutors for this age range can make the lesson fun, with a lot of changes of activity, varied multi-sensory approaches games etc. It can be something that a child enjoys and looks forward to!!

We thought about moving DS to an academic private prep at 7+. Decided against it for various reasons. We did though visit a couple of schools. They made 2 points about tutoroing:-

1. Generally they are against tutoring and say that they can recognise a tutored child.
2. However, for a child applying from a poor state school which will not have covered all of the required syallbus by the time of the entrance test, they recongise some degree of help" may be required.

Second point is understandable (and i think it was fair for them to acknowledge this).

In relation to the first point, we would not have tutored DS at this age in any event but DH and I do work pretty much full time and I did wonder how the school could really tell the difference between a child with one parent at home who does extra work with them and a child who has a tutor to do the same thing (and whether it would be fair to make the distinction).

Come 11+, we probably would like DS to go to one of these schools if he is still progressing well(or a grammar, although less convenient logistically) and probably would arrange a tutor if we were both still working. We would not consider it if we did not think he was academically able and would only be looking to put him in the same position as an equally bright child with a parent at home to help with past papers etc.

Not sure what is wrong with this. Better i think than us spending all our precious evening and weekend time with him doing extra work rather than having fun.

Strix- I can believe that private primaries are a year ahead as they have kids who will go on to do common entrance. I have looked at the syllabus for private and it is more rigorous. Plus in a class size of 15-20, children can go at a faster pace.
Back to squashpie - you need to wait and see whether your child is suited to the grammar schools you mention. Help at home with reading etc (there are some excellent threads on here about that) and wait until year 3 to see where she is. I say this because at this time, it really is too early to tell. I've heard the bond papers are good to use. Other than that, I have no experience of this. Good luck

My littleone is in year 1_thinking about to start grammar school preparation, let me know if anybody have idea how do i start?

I think year 1 is a bit yearly to start getting him tutored for 11+?!?! I would start with a regular tutor around year 3/4 and go with a specialised tutor (with a proven track record) in year 5.
Having said, if you do find a tutor who can challenge him and help him improve in key areas while keeping it fun and engaging for him.....go for it!

The OPs child will now be well established in secondary school