Tuition from year one and grammar school chances

[squashpie]

Couldn't think what else to call this question. DS is in year 1. He seems to be in top third in the various subjects. A few of his classmates have tuition/ kumon, which I'd always been dead against. Now I've discovered today that two of those tutored/ kumoned kids have extra maths to stretch them because they are clearly excelling.

We live in the London area and competition for grammar schools is fiercer than fierce and the local non-selective state schools are dire. It is our dearest wish that, if he were capable, DS would get into a grammar school. But how much of an advantage are the tutored/ kumoned kids getting. Will they be that far ahead when it comes to 11+? I've read on here that pupils level out but I can't help thinking that those who are so far ahead they are getting extra maths because they are already ahead of their year group are just going to maintain that lead. Do non-tutored but bright kids get into grammar school at 11?

Sorry for long post.

does anyone know the passmark for Tiffin?

they all say don't tutor your kids. I bet it's a different story when it's their kids' time

We didn't tutor DD for the 11+ - being of the philosophy that either she's good enough or she isn't.

She did indeed prove to be good enough, but then the grammar school in question (which was fiercely competitive) only examined verbal and non-verbal reasoning. I learned from MN that some grammar schools examine knowledge which isn't taught at state primary schools - so for those sorts of grammar schools you do indeed NEED to tutor.

So you need to find out what they examine before booking a tutor. If they only examine verbal and non-verbal reasoning then any bright child should be fine with a couple of practice papers.

McBitchy - the child in dd's class has been coached to pass papers, she is actually pretty good at maths but 3's in reading/literacy. The grammar HAS to offer her a place if there is a vacancy because she passed the test.
Simples

I may be seeing this wrong, but the way I see it is :
suppose your child is just as bright as X's child. You do hardly any preparation because you believe that if a child needs preparation then they won't cope at grammar. X's child has worked for a year on tons of sample papers, either with the parents at home or with a private tutor. On exam day X's child will probably get a higher score than your child. Your child was just as bright but didn't prepare.

The other factor is that the teachers at your school may not be as good as the teachers at the school where X's child goes. You might be unlucky and be at a school like the one in the Dispatches programme "Kids Don't Count". Through no fault of their own, your child may not be receiving quality tuition, whereas the tuition in the other school could be great. By giving your child tuition you can enter a level playing field.

State education follows a set programme - it doesn't suit all kids. Some kids really excel and pick things up quickly in the noisy classroom. Some need more time to grasp the learning. However, I often find it is the parents of these 'excelling' kids who shout out about how awful tutoring is.
I've heard so many awful comments thrown around about tutoring.

Tutoring for grammer school? Why not if he/she enjoys the class and it isn't too long, go for it? Won't hurt them, surely? If they don't want to go, get upset then of course, don't do it!

Tutoring and stressing out your children are completely different kettles of fish. You can be relaxed and loving and get a tutor too.

Claig is proposing an arms race

I was a member of CND

Quattrocento,
but are you still a CND member? Half the cabinet have changed their position

My ds got a place at a selective school and didn't receive any tutoring. We did some practice papers and that was all.
But a friend who teaches in one of these schools told me that if a child is tutored, it will add 20% onto their score. Which seems an awful lot!

i cannot believe any child could stick a selective grammar with4's at year 6 sats

they would sink.. these places thrive on competition

my kids were not tutored for nvr and vr but most are - i dont know anyone who wasn't and people are very cagey

i was in cnd too

Timetraveller - are you referring to a grammar school or a private independent?

I don't think there is a pass mark for Tiffin. They take the top scores until their places are full. And the test is vr and nvr.

Of course, it would be wise to have a back up plan, and your next choice of school may test on other things. So probably a good idea to work out what your plan b is so your child can be prepared for that test too.

Before you start tutoring I would actually go and look round tiffin. My ds1 is in yr 5 and bright we looked round this year and wouldn't send him there. It was the worst school we looked round and it is £800,000 over spent so poorly managed.They are asking parents for donations! Also last year there were over 2000 boys sitting the test for 120 places.
We are going for private secondary and ds is being tutored but only for the bits state primaries don't cover.

Andiem, what are the bits state primary does not cover?

they don't do as much maths as the private primaries do, they don't stretch the reading as much, they don't do vr and nvr and they don't do the level of extended writing that is required so not much really!

And where might one find a tutor who will fill these gaps? And when would a child start this tutoring?

we have started in year 5 and word of mouth! currently 5 kids from ds class go to the same tutor but she is not one of the pushy pushy ones
if you really want to go for tiffin you will need to do more than we are

I have 2 kids and I think one of them is a likely Tiffin candidate. The other one is probably not. From what I understand you have to be bright and very driven and conpetitive to succeed at Tiffin. My DD is exactly like this. DS is too young to really tell, but he does not have DD's competitive nature. So, possibly, the plan will be for DD to try for Tiffin but prepare for private as a back up, and hopefully get a scholarship. DS will do the same if he reveals himself to be a likely Tiffin candidate as well. But, I think he will probably be better off at private... in which case he'll need to have enough talent for a scholarship.

It is unlikely I could pay two full senior c=school fees but I could probably manage one, or two 1/2 scholarships.

Are the other state schools really so bad round your way Strix?

There is a girl's senior school that is okay. It is quite good in terms of state schools, but not really in the league of grammar or private. But, I have one girl and one boy. There is not even a mediocre boys state senior school. So, for him, it is grammar or private. I think it would be very unfair to send DD to state and DS to private. So, I have to send them both down grammar / private route... or possibly move when they are a bit older (which I suppose is another possibility).

Strix:

The academic private primaries in London say they are generally a year or so ahead of their state counterparts. I don't know how true this statement is as I only have experience with the private sector here, but I am reading "Math for Mums and Dads" and there is a chapter on what children should be learning according to the NC by year, and DS1 (in year 1) is indeed doing Year 2/3 work.

Ah but my son's in a state primary and he's doing Yr2 maths work in Yr1 too.

Go Smee's son!

So, what is your DS doing in year 1 that is regarded as year 2/3 work?

Sorry, and what is your year 2 work, smee?

(go little smee)