More huge problems with dd; please give me your advice and admonishment and anything else!

[Jux]

I have posted on this subject before - in bereavement mainly - but I'll put in background.

In the last 2 years we have had to contend with the deaths of 7 close friends and family. Moreover, our cat was killed, the two guinea pigs died, 3 of our fish died and all the frogs, the van blew up and my laptop gave up the ghost! I lump all this together as it has all had an effect on dd, who is 10.

She has been very traumatised and troubled, not surprisingly.

She has a counsellor who is fantastic, and they have a really good relationship. She has seen the school nurse, has access to a TA at school for 10mins a day to offload, we have seen CAMHS.

DD told us last night that the TA she sees at school (who is trained in counselling) said that it was irresponsible for us to have allowed dd to be there when my mother died.

As dd told us this she said it was like the woman was taking away the only family she had left. She cried for a long time and it took hours to calm her. She fell asleep from exhaustion at around 1am. We didn't send her to school today and won't be sending her tomorrow and then it's half term.

Is it normal practice to criticise parents in front of the child?

DH is threatening to make an official complaint to the County Council or whoever they are.

We don't feel that dd is gaining anything from going to school at the moment. She can't concentrate on lessons, she bursts into tears at the drop of a hat, her friends don't understand why she is OK one minute and miserable the next.

The TA's opinions seems to have gone round the school, with even a dinner lady telling dd that we were wrong to let her be there when mum died.

I am really upset. Mum's death was beautiful and peaceful and pain free. It was as lovely a death as you could ask for, particularly when cancer is involved. I feel like this small minded, stupid woman has poured dirt over it. (I'm overreacting I know.)

We don't feel inclined to send dd back to school at all now. We are considering keeping her out until September when she'll go up to secondary.

In fact, we are all over the place; and simply don't know where to turn.

Bloody hell you must be emotionally drained.

I would have a word with the TA tbh and say that she is not helping the situation.

I can't really think of anything else but a friendly bump for you.

have you spoken to TA and school about this....i'd get their version first

not their place to criticise as it sounds like seeing your mums death (sorry to hear)isnt the only thing affecting her right now

i took my dc in to say goodbye to my mum as she was dying,few weeks later they were in the room when i gave birth to their brother....everyone seems to have something to say about that!

good grief, you poor thing, and your poor dd. what a hellish time you have had. the TA imo was stupid and irresponsible. she is there for your dd to offload to, not to put her own opinions back onto to dd. given that your young daughter has had to face so much loss, I don't see that it was wrong for her to witness a death that was calm and peaceful. even if someone thought it was wrong a) what are they going to do about it now and b) why are they telling your dd?

would definitely have a word with whoever is responsible, also speak to the TA and her supervisor (if that's the right term).

re school. tricky. your dd needs routine, stability, security and the chance to be a child, playing and learning (as best she can) with other children. excluding her from that is unlikely to help. perhaps you can get a plan sorted with school over the next couple of days about giving your dd more support, not having her family situation discussed around the school, and some strategies for helping her cope in class and go back to it after half term renewed?

I'd have thought that the TA's role was simply to LISTEN to your DD, not to pass comment and judgement on decisions taken by you. She has crossed a line and needs to be told that, because clearly she has caused your DD even more upset. I would be a bit wary of someone who has had a bit of counselling training TBH....she is likely to do more harm than good if she sees her role as anything other than listener.

Thank you so much.

DH spoke to the head this morning. He pulled her out of a meeting. She is taking the line that dd may have told us, but it's not necessarily what happened. I can see her pov but I believe dd. The head is investigating.

The school have been trying and we are grateful for that, but dd is not learning anything as she is too emotionally full to be able to concentrate, or even really think straight. She's doing well but that's because she was ahead to start with.

Routine; hmmmm. Stability, being a child, playing etc. Yes she does need all that, but she isn't getting it at school. It is making her even more anxious, is placing a greater burden on her trying to hold her emotions together while she's there. The other children are, for the most part, not particularly sympathetic - they're only 10 after all, but that doesn't help dd. Her 'best friend' screamed across the playground at her on Monday that dd had completely ruined her birthday. No one's quite sure what that was about. DD has also been told that she's just using all this stuff as a way to get attention and to feel special.

So, I don't think school is helping. And she's not learning much. And they're putting pressure on her to go back to the maths group she was in before all this happened, as she's way ahead of the group she's in now. I agree with them on this, but dd is finding the pressure to succeed too much and that's why we (and her teachers) agreed for her to drop down for a bit. Now she's feeling sick at the thought of having to perform again.

My impression is that she's finding it so hard to maintain any sort of equilibrium in just being at school, that there is nothing left over for actual learning.

A huge problem is that she is feeling so insecure at the moment, that she is terrified one of us is going to die while she's at school. She has no idea when she comes out of school whether things are going to be the same or something else awful will have happened. It makes me cry just thinking about it, so heaven knows how hard that is for her.

And now she won't have anyone to offload to while she's there. I just can't see that it's doing her any good.

By the way, mum lived with us, she and dd were very very close, and she died upstairs. We couldn't have excluded dd even if we'd wanted to. Mum had been fine in the morning, I helped her to bed for her afternoon nap, and when I went back up at about 5.30 she was a little distressed. I called for a doctor at 6ish. They sent an ambulance but there was no way mum wanted (or we wanted either) to go to hospital. The doctor arrived around 7 and told me he didn't think she'd last the night. I just had time to phone both my brothers - one of whom died 6 weeks later - and a couple of relatives to ask for prayers (mum was a devout catholic), when she fell asleep. Meanwhile, what were we supposed to do with dd? Tell her to stay downstairs? Mum died soon after 10pm with the three of us there at her bedside. It was moving and sad and joyful. DD was holding her hand.

DD has said she would never have forgiven us if we had excluded her.

Sorry, I'm offloading. The shock is wearing off and I am beginning to feel the emotions that have been suppressed in favour of practicalities. I should be over on bereavement.

Jux I'm so sorry your family is having to deal with this.

In addition to getting the head to find out exactly what the TA has been saying, I think you need to have a chat with the school about confidentiality. Was there any need for a lunchtime supervisor to be sticking her oar in?! what has the TA been saying and who has she been gossiping to?

I think you've done the right thing pulling her out of school for this week. Hopefully things will have calmed down by next half term. If they don't would home educating for the rest of the year been possible for you?

Have you looked to see if there any charities that help bereaved children? It sounds like something there shoud be charities to help

Offloading is fine.

The TA is in the wrong and am shocked she said that, or anything which could be construed that way, as she's trained in counselling. You have to think not only of what you actually say but how it might be perceived. Her role should be listening and perhaps giving your DD some coping strategies. What counselling training has she had? Do you know? I'm glad the head is going to look into it and she needs to have SERIOUS words about the concept of confidentiality. Am absolutely appalled the dinner lady knows!

Am not suprised, if very sad, that your DDs classmates don't understand. It's unlikely that any of them will have experienced the death of a relative so close - most grandparents don't live with their extended family now and it must have been akin to losing a parent for your DD than a grandparent. I think it's actually important for this and your feelings to be on this thread. Obviously YOU are dealing with a lot of stress as well and DD is probably picking up on that as well as dealing with her own which is entirely normal and not to be criticised. In fact it's good IMO that DD sees that you are upset too because it validates that she can feel emotional about it.

I suppose the question is now whether your DD would benefit from a short time away from school to regroup. Or 'flexible' attendance. I suspect that the class have not been told to be sensitive as they might have been if she'd lost a parent. My ex-charge had a classmate who lost her father very suddenly and the class were given EXCELLENT advice and support so they could understand why the little girl behaving the way she was. They were 7/8 at the time. Could you suggest this to the school so the class can make sense of what's happening?

If you keep her out do you personally feel up to home edding her? You are dealing with a lot and she will need to cover things before going to secondary. Can she remain in touch with her friends if she comes out of school or will she end up feeling isolated? Are they all going to the same secondary together?

Also is she due to take SATS? Presumably she will if the school is state. Can she go back in to take them? Would it be too much pressure on her? Will her secondary mind if she doesn't?

My personal feeling is she needs to work through the anxiety she has, particularly about you dying when she's at school, and the TA person is categorically NOT the person to do that. Can you get in touch with CAMHS again?

Sorry that's a long post and probably full of difficult questions. I'm so, so sorry you're going through all this and deal with your own pain and bereavement. Do make sure you take the time to look after yourself as well as your DD.

I don't see that home edding in itself would be a problem academically. There is no need for her to do SATs and as most secondary schools test them in some way when they start anyway and use these results to 'set' them, SATs would be completely pointless. Children who are home edded right through primary and then go to secondary have no SATs results.

It would at least take the pressure off her for a few months and if she's already doing well and ahead, a bit of work when she feels able, maybe a couple of projects on things she's interested in would keep her going. Maybe she could learn something new or you could learn something together.

Did the lunchtime supervisor know about the situation through your DD or the TA. If the TA told her, she is not a very good counsellor as she clearly does not know the meaning of the word confidentiality. I would be asking what qualifications she actually has in counselling.

Just to confirm what others have said. It doesn't matter what the TA has said to your dd. What matters is what she understood. She understood you were wrong to let her be here when her gran died. That's what matters.

The fact that she told (or let your dd thought) you were irresponsible and that so many people seem to be aware of her point of view makes me think that she does not have a proper qualification as a counsellor. As for any health practitioner, confidentiality is key and criticizing the chil's parents isn't on.

How does your dd feel? Does she think it'better for her to be at school (so she has something else to concentrate on) or that the pressure is too big and she would prefer to be at home?

our society has lost all connection with death as a normal part of life. I nursed both my parents at home and can very easily picture the situation you describe - and how much your dd might have suffered in being excluded. Excluding her could not make it all OK

And in any case - it's not their business to tel your dd they think you were wrong. If they are so concerned - they should ask to talk to you directly about those concerns. I would be pretty furious.

hi again OP. all that you say about school does make it sounds as if it is simply putting too much pressure onto your dd. I just wouldn't want you to take her out, and for her to then feel that she had done something wrong somehow (obv you wouldn't be saying that, but she will be so mixed up right now that she could probably construe any situation in any way). also you would need to think about what the way back in might be. could she leave for the rest of the year and repeat the last year for example? (could make things much better or much worse of course - but might take all the pressure off for a few months, and then no pressure to catch up when she goes back).

can you speak to her counsellor about this? how often do they meet? can she get some more intensive help? could she call the counsellor each day for 10 mins rather than this TA who sounds like she is gossipy and judgemental, hardly the best role for a counsellor.

really for you - none of the above may be of use, but wanted to try and suggest something - things that won't work at least mean you can start to sort out your options and what you think might work.

I have nothing sensible to add, agree with what the others have said, but just wanted to send condolences - very sorry to hear you and your family are having such a very rough time. I hope that things will look a little less grim in a month or so. Take care.

Just to air another pov...

Counselling is about helping the person to express how they are feeling, and bereavement can bring up very complex and sometimes contradictory feelings, eg like feeling love and sadness but also feeling angry at the person who died. When I read your posts I wondered whether your dd felt glad she was there when your mother died but also felt she wished she hadn't been there, or whether she is displacing some anger onto you and it came out in this way? And that perhaps she has expressed some of this to the TA, which I think would be a good thing. Of course she may then feel guilty about criticising you or just find it very hard to acknowledge that she might not be Ok with how things happened.
Or I could be completely off track, who knows. But the thing is I don't think you know either, so I'm just saying I wouldn't jump to conclusions about what the TA has said or whether it's appropriate.
I would ask your dd again when she is calm about whether she wants to carry on talking to the TA. You also sound very angry and I would ask yourself where the anger is coming from and whether anger is the most useful response for your dd and for you in this situation.
I hope I have nto spoken too bluntly, but your thread title suggests it would be Ok to state an opinion.

Actually, I think it was what you said about your DH that made me say that about you being angry.

Riven, I'm so sorry - how dd got her counselling is not going to help you, but I'll tell you anyway. My mum died of cancer and when she got her dx we were taken to a charity called Force, which operates in our area, for cancer patients and their families and friends. It has a little house in the grounds of the hospital where we could go for peace and quiet or to talk to someone etc. They offer a wonderful service and we were very lucky, as after mum died we popped in their and asked if anyone could see dd and lo and behold, this youth bereavement counsellor was there and free at that moment.

We were just incredibly lucky to be in this area and that my mum was kind enough to die of cancer so we could take advantage of Force.

I'm sorry, I know that doesn't help you. I hope you get something in place soon.

I am reading posts carefully and will try to respond to all of your points. Thank you all so much for your time and replies (yes, Ottersarenice, I do want to be castigated if you think that's what is necessary).

Thanks to everyone for your condolences.

Confidentiality is now down on my list; I'm clearly not thinking properly quite yet

The school are well aware of dd's relationship with her grandmother. DH went in and saw the head back in November/December (can't remember), and explained everything to her. She was in no doubt of the close relationship between them and that mum was a second mother to dd.

How long can you expect 10year olds to be sympathetic and understanding for? I think it's asking too much, and don't even think badly of her best friend.

Ottersonice, just read your name properly, sorry! I asked dd this morning, when she was quite chirpy, and before I posted and before dh spoke to the head. I said that the TA could get into a lot of trouble. DD was still not in any doubt.

Yes, I was angry; so was dh. (By the way, what did I say about dh? I can't find anything much though I did say some rude stuff about the TA being small minded, would that be it?) TBH, I do think she is small minded if she honestly thinks that there is a 'right' and 'wrong' way to deal with any family death, or any family birth come to that - as pointed out early in this thread by ILoveTiffany.

Acinonyx. When people started dying around us, as it were, we were both in agreement that children are so shielded from death that it is verging on unhealthy. It is almost like something shameful or disgusting has happened and "we don't talk about that sort of thing, dear". We didn't expect our noses to be rubbed in it like this. I think that if dd can get through this, then she'll get through anything, but that's not much help to her now [wry smile].

Must stop for a minute. Will continue in a bit.

Jux - Sorry, I wasn't clear at all there, I meant that I realised that it was your dh that sounded angry, when I re-read. Bit about him pulling headteacher out of a meeting (I know you didn't mean literally pulling).

And also I should add, I think it's perfectly understandable/normal for either/any of you to be feeling angry.

As for school, dd says almost every day that she just can't cope. We have been encouraging her to believe that she can, and to see that she can. It's not really working.

So SATs are not actually necessary. That's a good point and I hadn't thought of it, even though I have a friend who home eds and her children can't possibly have them!

DH and I were talking after dd fell asleep last night about home edding her for the rest of this year. It would allow us to do all sorts of things with her which I think would do her a lot of good, possibly rather more than just going to school and being miserable would.

DD has begged to be home schooled for some months. I have not entertained the idea because I really don't think I would do her justice.

I still don't think I would do her justice, but I can see that she is very unhappy at school, that it places an undue burden on her and that she cannot do herself justice under these circumstances.

I need to contact my friend and talk to her about it rather more seriously and in more depth than I have before.

I am worried as dd is an only child and could end up very isolated.

However, I do still have some relatives left, and being able to take her to stay with them, be more a part of their lives would enrich hers enormously.

Academically, she is ahead. She would learn 'on the go' which she responds to really well.

She would have much more fun, which again would benefit her enormously, and any child will learn better if they are having fun than if they are downright miserable.

More thought required, and discussion with dh.

DH and I also talked about secondary school.

DD has never really fitted in. She is like a square peg in a round hole, and her fellow pupils often call her weird.

DH has suggested trying to find a weird school for weird kids. He's not joking! He means somewhere like Summerhill in Sussex. I'd love her to go somewhere like that, but don't know of anywhere in Devon. There's the faintest possibility that with Probate on mum's estate - due sooooooooon - we could afford to send her somewhere.

More thought again.