SATS papers - what mark to reach next level?

[MostlyMad]

I read somewhere that if the child reaches a certain mark in the SATS paper then a further paper is offered for the next level. In last year's voluntary Year 5 SATS my DS achieved a 5b (in Maths). If she does as well in this year's Statutory SATS will she be offered a further paper and, if so, would that be for a Level 6? I cannot find any past papers for a level 6 to give her some challenging practice. What mark would she have to achieve in the KS2 Maths papers to be offered a further test for another level?
School is very reluctant to share any information with me about her performance. They tell me she is "bright" (as are the rest of her class) but won't tell me anything more specific. Can anyone offer any help - I have looked extensively on the internet and can't find anything about the actual marking and/or levels above 5.

I don't like to pee on your fire, but does it matter hugely? and if so, why?

I'm pretty sure that the level boundaries are set at the pre-marking meetings for examiners, i.e. they're not fixed.

KS2 SATs are really not worth the paper they're printed on and most secondary schools either ignore or pay very little heed to the KS2 results when setting for Y7: it's more done on either half a term's work once at the school and/or CATs testing and Teacher Assessment from the primary school.

I thought they stopped doing level 6 papers quite a while ago. I know my niece did an extra paper but she is 18 but they didn't offer extra papers at my DCs primary, DD did ks2 last year and DS is 14.

Level 6 papers are not normally offered at the end of KS 2 any more - and in any case, the school won't know how your DD has performed in the statutory tests until early July, as they are externally marked, whereas the optional tests are marked by her teachers.

If your DD enjoys maths, why not show her the nrich maths site, which offers some challenging problems for more able pupils.

Our school have stopped letting children sit Level 6 papers. They also don't tell you what level 5 your child has achieved (as in a, b or c)
Not that ds will achieve 5's - he is distinctly average and on target to achieve the required 4b's .

I agree in that it does not matter one iota. Secondary schools seem to generally accept that schools will 'cheat' to achieve high SAT marks and pay generally very little attention to the results. Instead they stream the children according to the work done at secondary school.

"Instead they stream the children according to the work done at secondary school"

NOt necessarily. DCs school streams from the day they start and there sats scores are used for targeting and streaming. Their raw KS2 SATs scores are displayed on "eschool"

Fair point bruffin. I only have experience of our local secondary, which does indeed set the initial sets according to SAT results but then spends the whole of Y7 testing and assessing and moving children accordingly.

their sats scores

I'd say your ds's school is in a minority though, bruffin. There are many other factors that come into streaming students and to only rely on the external SATs results is fraught with problems, ime. I'd very surprised if that was the only data they used. Not saying your info is inaccurate - just rare these days.

Our school used to test in the first week of school (CATs, reading and writing tests) and use these to help stream. If anyone seemed wrongly placed, they'd be moved up or down at the end of a term or half term.

But this year they taught everyone mixed ability for the first half term and used the work they produced as the decising factor. It's been the most successful method to date, with very few students having to change classes during the year.

deciding

They do CATS in the Juy before they start, they use both and they particularly wanted to know the raw scores of the SATs because they rang my DS's YR6 teacher to ask for them when they got their results.

There is very little movement either

Reputedly our local High School uses the teacher reports (so not SATs or CATs) to stream the new pupils in Yr7.

At ds1's secondary they teach in mixed ability groups in yr7 and then set for yr8. (or for some subjects half way through yr7).

The problems they found on setting according to SATs data is that some of the feeder primaries are "SATs factories" and others aren't, so the assessments are not consistent.

I can stop searching for level 6 papers then -there aren't any! You're right, of course, itchyandscratchy, it doesn't matter hugely but I was nevertheless curious and if, as seems to be the general opinion, the SATS for year 6 are not going to be used by her secondary school at all, then it has NO significance at all, other than for the school.

I know nothing about CATs - can anyone elighten me?

As other posters have indicated, there are no level 6 SAT papers - children working at level 6 are teacher assessed at this level but would still have to complete the level 3-5 SAT papers.

It is an often ignored fact that Y6 teacher assessment has equal weighting with the SAT score. I'm not surprised that secondary schools think SAT results are unreliable, or that some use TAs to set - teacher assessments are based on solid day to day evidence, and SAT scores rely on a 45 minutes snapshot. We know that a child isn't really, say, a solid level 5 because their test score just squeaks the mark required.

I appreciate that the test is just a snapshot but, unless it's a multiple choice and the student has the chance to be very lucky, I don't see how the given answers can't be an accurate reflection of the child's knowledge and ability? In this case DD dropped 3 or 4 marks (said teacher). Is it really possible that she repeatedly achieved the right answer by guessing?
As a parent it helps to know what a test score is - the paper cannot be biased (like a teacher). The teachers in DDs school have had 37 in the class and only 1 assistant - is it really possible that with so many children to assess that they are accurate, on every point, for every student, in every subject? There are only so many hours in the day ...

I'm not suggesting that your dd isn't a solid level 5, op. And, unless I have read your posts incorrectly, neither is the teacher. You need to know what her teacher assessment was at the end of year 5 - a teacher assessment is a more accurate reflection since it relies on many sources of information, and is a reflection of where your child is working day to day.

For example, a child is not working solidly, on day to day basis, at a level 5b if they just on one occasion scrape the exact mark required for a level 5b. The criteria any sublevel describes more than 3 or 4 marks could ever fulfil. But the child concerned certainly won't be far away from it! It takes around 4 to 5 months (working at a pace described as 'good' in Ofsted speak) for a typical child to progress one sublevel.

Not sure I explained that very well, reading back. If your dd was assessed as a 5c at the end of y5, then a result/assessment of a 5a at the end of y6 would be 'good' progress (as opposed to satisfactory progress).

Thanks! Your explanation of the work required to progress a level is helpful as is your description of the "pace".

Glad I was useful, if garbled

I think it's unlikely to get a falsly high mark on these papers MostlyMad, but some children underachieve if they are nervous, distracted or having an off day for some reason, That's why a single 45min test isn't wholly reliable.

It's extremely common, actually - look how many borderline papers they used to have to be remark every year, before they stopped that practice (and made the standard of marking even worse as a result).

was thinking marking inaccuracies would be minimal in maths, but you are quite probably right feenie. Rather a depressing thought.

My ds1 who was and still is (now yr11) was one of the last to get a level 6 afaik in yr6.
The issue we were told was lack of level 6 teachers for Maths at primary level. which makes sense as technically it is secondary maths for most kids.
The level 6 was withdrawn the yr after DS1 did it.
Reaching levels 5's at yr 5 is enough to be satisfied with and as others have pointed out, secondary school is the leveller.
Sounds like great achievements so far though OP!

The SAT paper for level 6 was withdrawn, but we may still teacher assess at level 6, and we do occasionally. There were 3 last year - but they were unusually gifted. We do teach them level 6 maths.

When SATs were first introduced then teachers could enter certain children to take the level 6 paper. However, this was withdrawn a few years ago. KS2 SATs now only test levels 3-5.