SATS papers - what mark to reach next level?

[MostlyMad]

I read somewhere that if the child reaches a certain mark in the SATS paper then a further paper is offered for the next level. In last year's voluntary Year 5 SATS my DS achieved a 5b (in Maths). If she does as well in this year's Statutory SATS will she be offered a further paper and, if so, would that be for a Level 6? I cannot find any past papers for a level 6 to give her some challenging practice. What mark would she have to achieve in the KS2 Maths papers to be offered a further test for another level?
School is very reluctant to share any information with me about her performance. They tell me she is "bright" (as are the rest of her class) but won't tell me anything more specific. Can anyone offer any help - I have looked extensively on the internet and can't find anything about the actual marking and/or levels above 5.

curious piffle, ds is also yr 11 & they'd already phased out the L6 papers when he did SATS. The teacher did give him a couple of old L6 papers which he got perfect/very near perfect scores on, but never sat the real thing, so was L5 on his test score (L6 on teacher assesment though obviously). Did they phase it out at different times across the country I wonder & if so, why?

No, last papers were 2002 nationally, iirc.

I think it was 2002 - that was the last year they did the higher grades at KS3 level 8 in English & Science, and the Exceptional Performance in Maths. (level 8 in Maths stayed for at least another year, as DD got it)

According to DS's Maths teacher in the last year of the EP in KS3 Maths, there were only 150 pupils in England who got it, and 35 of them were at DS's school!

Wow rusty, nearly a quarter at one school! Do they have exceptional maths teachers or select very rigorousy for maths I wonder? Sounds like a good place to be for a bright mathmo.

Thanks to you all - I'm looking further forward now, to secondary school and stopped worrying about the SATs and whether she should or shouldn't be sitting a level 6 paper.

It's a state grammar, and they do have exceptional maths teachers (or did when DS was there, he's 22 now, so I don't know about the current situation)- out of 130 in DS's year, 110 took Maths to AS level and 94 to A2.

impressive...

OP, I'd ask the school if they sit the Primary Maths challenge. I think the maths challenge papers are far more interesting to good mathematicians than SATs papers of any level.

Can you not do Level 8 at KS3 any more? DD1 got her report this week (she is Yr8) which said she was on track to achieve L8 at KS3.

Well, they don't have the national tests at KS3 any more, but they still refer to the levels in the teacher assessments, and probably in the end-of-year exams.

Of course. I forgot they weren't actually doing national tests any more. Must try harder to keep up. Anyway, v proud of DD1, especially as we have battled for years to persuade her that she is NOT rubbish at maths, as she used to believe.

Snorkie - what is Primary Maths Challenge? A test? DD did go on a Maths Challenge in year 5 (which was some kind of competition). I have no idea what it was about - the school told me nothing - I didn't even find out what score she achieved and she didn't seem to have a clue what was going on.
We go to a very odd school - they operate along the same lines as doctors in hospitals used to years ago - don't tell the family anything specific, they won't be able to cope with anything too complicated.

dd now year 9 did 'teacher assessed level 6 extension papers'

fwiww

Primary Maths Challenge is a maths competition run by the mathematical asssociation. The questions (well the later ones at least) are a bit more thought provolking than SATs. It's seen by some schools as the junior version of the UKMT challenges that many senior schools enter their more able mathematicians for.

You take the papers in school, so don't have to go anywhere, but there are other locally run maths challenges (or competitions) as well which may be what your daughter did.

A new system is being trialled in many primary schools, called single level tests (ie one test at L3, one at L4 etc).

The KS2 end of key stage tests will be phased out soonish and these single level tests will replace them (all things being equal - general election could always change things).

And a L6 paper was commissioned, written, trialled and has been finalised. So they are definitely looking to go down that route again.

Sorry, this is in maths btw

my ds got 5a for literacy and 5a for maths in last years voluntary y5 SATS or QCAS or whatever they call them before y6. he is now in Y6 and is being challenged with Y7 work.however there are vdisadvantages to this in that sometimes he finishes a sat paper so quickly that he spends time going over answers and is often tempted to change them as keeps thinking there must be a catch somewhere the answers cant be that easy what can we do here?
our head wants him to aim for a level 6 but highest can achieve is level 5 on sats paper but teacher assessment can be a level 6. I know this because our dd1 did sats in 2008 and got all level 5's in sat tests and all level 6's in teacher assessments. she got into top sets at secondary who streamed her immediately on raw scores from sats(not teacher assessments) so I dont understand why they need to do teacher assessments any way why cant they just keep them all on level 5 work at primary?

Because some primary headteachers would like to say 'ooh look at our L6 pupil(s) - that must be because our school is so great.'

The really good schools/headteachers realise that this has no benefit whatsoever for the child. Instead they focus on broadening the child's learning experiences within the KS2 context, without pushing for unnecessary acceleration into higher level stuff too soon.

"so I dont understand why they need to do teacher assessments any way why cant they just keep them all on level 5 work at primary?"

Because those children who were already a level 5a at the end of Y5 wouldn't progress in and would be bored stiff through Y6, even with good broadening of learning experiences (which, in Numeracy, would probably still progress their using and applying knowledge to a level 6, btw). I think we would be doing those children a disservice if we taught them no new Numeracy knowledge for an entire year.

I can only speak for mathematics and it really really is the case that it is better for the more able not to be taught higher level concepts too soon.

There's loads that can be done in terms of enrichment that helps properly establish their conceptual understanding of the fundamentals of mathematics.

Research and advice offered to the government has strongly advised this for a while now.

yearofthedodo please are you a maths teacher by any chance? if so could you read my post again cos would like some advice. DS excels in Maths equally strong in literacy but in maths in particular like i have said he seems to fly through the practice papers that school have given him for homework so we are trying to encourage him to spend a minimum time on them we have suggested 30 to 45 mins if he finishes to go over and check. sometimes when doing this he may change an answer which was correct to incorrect because he sometimes thinks the answer cannot be so easy. I have said to try and encourage him that to look how many points question is worth and if only 1 point then answer can really be that simple. in school to challenge and keep him interested they are giving him y7 work now from experience the same happened with my dd who is now in y8 found in y7 sometimes repeating work she did in y6 but she said questions usually slightly harder then tended to give her y8 work. now in y8 doing mainly y9 standard i think ? sorry post soooo long !

Generally I think that's probably true YOTD, I suspect there are a few (probably only a very few) exceptions though. I would add, that bright mathematicians can be incredibly intuitive about how to tackle problems they've not seen before. So, for example, a child who had a very strong grasp of all KS2 mathematics & was good at extending what they knew without being shown, would be able to do L6 papers without having been taught the extra bits. Whether or not it's worth seeing if that's the case or not I don't know. I remember when L6 papers were given out at our school (only to the top set as I recall), some parents were up in arms that the children were being asked algebra questions etc that they hadn't been taught, but a few of the children just did them anyway.

Busymummy3 - yes maths teacher but also work in advisory role and have been very involved in development of end of key stage assessments.

If possible, get your DS to do more interesting things than old exam papers! I know it's v hard to know what to do when you're not a specialist.

Try here:
www.bowlandmaths.org.uk/kids.htm

We desperately need to move away from skills-based teaching and into true context-based mathematics with a problem-solving emphasis.

There are some brilliant teachers out there doing this day in day out, but there are lots still just doing 'today we're learning how to multiply decimals'.

Btw agree Snorkie but that was partly because the L6 papers were written in a way to facilitate this.

There was no point writing papers that nobody could do at all. But they still had to have content that was defensible as 'level 6'. It was a hard balance to strike as I recall!

Yearthedodo thanks for the link have had a quick look myself and will show DS tomorrow there are a few he will like especially the Alien Invasion! he is exceptional at mental maths algebra calculations with figures decimals fractions percentages etc he tends to be not so strong in shapes measurements nets etc could you recommend any good links for these areas of maths ?