whats with this phonetic spelling????

[miku]

while i understand that it helps my daughter to express herself without being hung up on spelling, why arent easy words actually taught as they are spelt???
it seems a little daft to me, as then kids have to 're-learn' words, as they are actually spelt.
I had a little conflab with the teacher, as my daughter is also bi-lingual........as are 90% of kids in the school......waste of brain space or confidence building???

apologies as im sure this topic has come up loadsa times before........thoughts please!!

ds1 is dyslexic and his school refuse to use synthetic phonics as they didnt think it worked.with help outside of school we use synthetic phonics at home and its really helping him especially with regards to his confidence.he was told he couldnt read at school but the help they offeed wasnt good enough.hes now changed schools!

dh doesnt 'get' phonics and i admit we sound a bit like aliens at times but it works for us.

I agree phonics works for many children (exactly how it works is fascinating) but it looks like it doesn't work for all children.

Zepharine DS will often spell words correctly out loud but not on paper.
The reason he is not spelling well when he is writing is because he says he can't concentrate on both, its either written slowly and with probably better spelling but lacking quality and content or full of originality and ideas but spelling is awful, it really isn't anything to do with phonics. If you are really interested read up on dylexia and listen to what Lisa, Debbie, Maisie ,Maverik et al who obviously know what they are talking about.

Flummoxed if you want advice from another mother who has been there, try and relax again about the spelling so he can get back to enjoying writing.

My DS's spelling can be atrocious he wrote this in his planner in YR7

"Wright down good unditakers and hosbittles and good beryol sights"
Obviously a quick note to himself so he wasn't concentrating.

He can spell the same word 3 different ways on the same page, but a big but, he is doing so well in so many ways that his science teacher says he has the potential for Oxbridge.
My DH still can't spell and is an electronics engineer and got top marks in the country for one exam.

In our house there is a constant "MrsB/Mum how do you spell this" it does my head in

claig, he is quite good at maths, more problem solving rather than times table, I think he lacks the discipline to learn the time table. He has got a curious mind as well, quite experimental in his learning.

I don't understand this thing about seeing words. He has got good audio memory ( i think), memorises music easily and beats me at the memory game in nintendo all the time. Maybe I can use this for his spelling (in desperation!)

ZephirineDrouhin, I'm the only speller getting your name right

Bruffin, I have listened to all of those people and looked at their phonics programmes. I am actually fairly convinced that synthetic phonics is a very efficient way to teach most children to read, particularly in large classes. At the moment I am less convinced about its positive effects on spelling, which is why I am airing my concerns. I would love to be convinced that it is the perfect system for both reading and spelling, as it is certainly how my daughter will be taught, but I currently feel much as claig does. If someone gives a really convincing argument for it I will stop worrying about it.

And you have also spelled my name with a phonetic guess. Jeez, haven't any of you heard of Look and Say?

(Only joking.)

claig, yes I noticed

Flummoxed I would also recommend Stareway to Spelling it is very intensive but it did help DS to some extent.

flummoxednow, not sure what you mean by "I don't understand this thing about seeing words". I think he could see them if he wanted to, but he doesn't try because he tries to sound them instead. You said you were not a native English speaker, how did you learn to spell English, probably not phonetically. I didn't learn the foreign languages I speak phonetically either. I think your son is being very logical and trying to follow the phonetic rules literally and that is why he is a poor speller, and I can understand how worried you must be because he is nearly 9 years old and is a clever lad.

ZephIrine. Trouble is I have just read "The Trouble with Lichen" the main character is called Zephanie and I keep seeing that name instead of Zehpirine.

Zehpirine

". I think he could see them if he wanted to"

Claig you are so irritating What don't you understand about people not "seeing words" Dyslexics can't see words, its not a case of not trying.

A good analogy is filing a word away in a filing cabinet and when you open it again the files are all mixed up so you can't find it easily.

flummoxed' ds doesn't sound as though he is dyslexic though?

sorry I am now going to blame my tools, I hate this keyboard!

bruffin, thanks. Was looking into Stareway to Spelling as it was mentioned in an earlier post.

Problem now is ds does not like to write as he knows he is not a good speller. He has been put back a level in school for spelling.

Why don't you think he sounds as if he is dyslexic?

Because flummoxed has not said that he is having problems with reading, and he's not getting his letters mixed up - he seems to be just making perfectly reasonable stabs at spelling phonetically.

forgive me for being irritating. Is flummoxednow's son dyslexic? Also I think people's memory retrieval techniques can be improved, and I would be surprised if that didn't also apply to dyslexics. I have posted links to Dr. Neville E. Brown's work with dyslexics, where he works on memory techniques for dyslexics using morphemes and associated pictures. He is an expert on dyslexia, far more experienced than both of us, and he says "phonics is resulting in ?abysmally slow? progress for dyslexics"
www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=6002967
I realise that there are many experts who disagree with him. There is clearly a debate about these issues. His son says

"??Normal? readers reach a point where they can ignore the fact the word doesn?t sound like it appears,? says Dr Brown. ?They put it into a different framework.

?The dyslexic person does not do that. The last thing they need is extra phonics. That is precisely what their problem is. If they are struggling with that and you take them back to sounding out words like ?c?, ?a?, ?t? they get trapped at the low level of reading. It is soul destroying to be reading baby books when you?re at secondary school. School becomes a humiliating experience and the rational response is to play truant because you?re not getting anything out of it.?
"

www.birminghampost.net/life-leisure-birmingham-guide/postfeatures/2009/01/21/understanding-dyslexia- 65233-22746472/

I think that flummoxednow is worried that her son is not progressing fast enough using the current methods that he is being taught. When I looked at her excellent concrete examples of her son's spelling, I think I can see where he is going wrong. Can you explain how her son ends up with such poor spelling?

ZephirineDrouhin/bruffin, ds does get his 9 and p, b and d mixed up sometimes. He self corrects, so I hope that its just an age thing.

I have entertained the thought that he may be dyslexic but ds is quite a sensitive boy and I am unwilling to upset him by having him tested. Senco says if he is it is quite mild.

claig, I learnt spelling by rote. I am chinese

flummoxednow, I learnt to spell my foreign languages by rote as well. I think that is how most of us learn how to spell foreign languages, I am not certain but I don't think I have come across anyone who didn't.

can i quickly ask all you clever people how on earth i could help ds1 who is dyslexic but also with a speech and language delay.words such as silver he has no idea on,as he says silfer etc.

sorry to hijack quickly miku.

I think silfer is easier to say than silver, it requires less mouth movement etc., so he is naturally drawn to the easier option.
I would try something like repeated practice of easier words like "ever", "over", "dover", "clover" and keep repeating them, chanting them, and then move to repetition of "silver". Maybe also try putting these words into songs, or finding songs which contain the word "silver" e.g. "hi ho silver lining". Singing and rhyming helps to embed the sounds into memory

thank you I'll give it a go.that was one of the easier ones,and one that came up in his spelling test last week.he really panicked.

Claig what is your expertise on the subject ? you seem very keen to give out advice without have much understanding of the problems?

There is no difference in "mouth movement" between silver and silfer. The f and the v are produced in exactly the same way, the difference is the v is 'voiced'.
Maybe you could try getting your son to make a long ffffff sound and then a long vvvvv sound. If he puts his finger on his larynx while doing so he will feel the difference between them.