How to talk about DD's abilities without sounding irritating/precious

[clemette]

Dear all,
DD (4.5) starts full-time in reception in January. She is almost the only one that won't have been to the school pre-school/ attended part-time this autumn.
The pre-school that she is at keep stressing to us that her abilities are unusually high for her age, but TBH I am not sure if they are. She can count to 100, count back from 30, count to 20 in French, can do addition and subtraction, read simple words, write clearly etc etc Most of this she has learnt a her very small pre-school.
Anyway, we went to the open evening for her new school and the reception teacher was talking about how they were working with the children to identify shapes. I was wondering whether it was worth phoning the teacher to talk about what DD can do, or whether I should just trust their professionalism to see that she might be a little beyond what they are doing with the majority.
I don't think she is G+T particularly (and working in secondary education realise that children often even out eventually). I also don't want to present myself as an ultra pushy parent, as we have really tried not to be and let DD develop as she will.
I just wondered if anyone had any advice?
Thanks.

You have gone on at great length in the past DAL about how your own experiences made you misbehave at school, and seemed to assume that this would be the natural course of events, i.e. extrapolating from personal experience. POinting this out is not patronising.

Quite apart from this, I did want to stress that it is also a question of personality how you deal with things as a child. Things that are damaging to one child may be a learning experience for another one.

Not all my dd's teachers have been good teachers; some have been pretty awful. But she has a very tolerant personality and understands the concept of fallible human beings. She has never had the attitude that her behaviour will depend on other people; she may laugh in private at an incompetent or ignorant teacher but she always understood that teachers are people and people are different.

Someone like her will never show up in your research because she doesn't cause any problems so it will be assumed that she just had good teaching.

We don't know what the OPs dd's personality is like.

In trying to point out that it wasn't patronising you do a great job of patronising me again.

People certainly are different!

DAL:
"If you've got an intelligent child and want her stretched and challenged in the state system then you're going to have to do some pushing. And it'll likely start right at reception...

In the years to come if she does land with a teacher who isn't giving her the "stretching and challenging" she needs - which WILL happen..."

(bold emphasis mine)

Not at all true, so far, in my poxy little experience at our poxy satisfactory-rated Lots-of-SN-&-Free-School-Dinners primary. Not unless me weekly getting new books for DC from town library counts as "pushing".

My relevant DC are in Yrs 3 & 5.

Sorry DAL but I am not comfortable starting with an attitude of not thinking that her school will not meet her needs. My question was about whether I should tell them what level she is at in advance, but have been reassured by this thread that they will pick it up.
It may be naive, but my attitude is that school is about more than just academic achievement and that as long as she finds the stuff she does if interest then she will be happy.
I myself would be classified as "gifted" and I needed no extra input, no register, no special treatment to do well at school. Given that she is doing well with a non-academic preschool and with no "hothousing" from us beyond answering her trillions of questions I don't see why I would need to assume that a school that serves our local community well would in any way fall short!

Sorry, first sentence should have read, Sorry DAL but I am not comfortable starting with an attitude of not thinking that her school will meet her needs.

DatLarge, you accuse Cory of being patronising, but you're downright dictatorial. It's great that you want to share your experiences, wisdom and research, but you can't expect everyone to agree. A fair few on here have intelligent kids and a fair few seem happy with their primaries - so your experience though of course valid is not the only truth in the system. So possibly posting in a little less strident way might be more appropriate.
Read clemette's last post. Makes a lot of sense to me.

I agree that going in with your boxing gloves strapped on would be counter-productive. FWIW, your DD sounds to me like a very able child, but I would wait until hearing the teachers' assessments in a few weeks before starting to worry about active advocacy on her behalf -- it may not be needed to the extent DAL suggests.

Ultimately, you as the parent will be providing much of your child's most enriching educational experiences anyway, to say nothing of the all-important emotional foundation, without which she will totter and tumble, no matter how gifted or able she is.

Teachers do their best, ime, but there is no such thing as a perfect school, a perfect teacher, or a perfect curriculum tailor made for each individual child. No matter how much effort is made by the parties concerned, there will be times of boredom for a very intelligent child in the average classroom.

smee, hmm, you seem confused. I didn't tell anyone what to do. I provide advice from my experience with G&T and leave people to make of it what they will. I state facts about often dismal provision for intelligent children in a lot of schools (not all). There's plenty of evidence. You may not like what I say but you can't change the facts.

A fair few on here have intelligent kids and a fair few seem happy with their primaries
And I stated that no parents are happy? That all schools always fail intelligent kids?

As mathanxiety says, there will be times of boredom for every intelligent child. Parents are under no compulsion to do anything about it. (Or even accept that it exists!)

The level of severity at which each parent may want to get involved varies. Some may never see a problem with it and may have a higher tolerance for their child being bored - poxy schools or not. How children cope with boredom varies too, some cope a lot better than others and with no ill-effect from even extreme boredom.

But if the parent wanted "challenging" - which is what I said - then they'd have to push. If not today, then tomorrow.

Sorry DAL but I am not comfortable starting with an attitude of not thinking that her school will not meet her needs.
Good. Then we are in agreement. But if there was an extra "not" in there, maybe you're saying you disagree. That's fine too. I don't advise anyone to start with a negative view, I advise them to start with a realistic view based on known facts.

have been reassured by this thread that they will pick it up.
Great, if you're that confident then you can just leave it to them. As I've said before, problem solved!

Oh, I just noticed the second of your last two posts, clemette. I blame the scroll button on this new mouse.

FWIW I think children need to feel bored sometimes and learn the skills to deal with boredom. Teachers are not entertainers!

DatL, I'm not confused, it's your certainty that's so strident. so things such as you're saying: "..you're going to have to do some pushing. And it'll likely start right at reception." + "..if she does land with a teacher who isn't giving her the "stretching and challenging" she needs - which WILL happen.." Okay, you're right you don't tell her what to do, in detail, but you are making the assumption that her child won't be challenged and will be bored. So I was trying to say that's not what everyone finds, as I felt sad for Clemette. She hasn't even started her child in primary school, yet you're telling her she will definitely hit problems. There's no harm at all in saying she might hit problems and telling her what you've found, but it's the definite assumption and tone I was grumbling about. Your last post agrees that it's best not to start with a negative view, but that's far from what your earlier posts implied.

you're right you don't tell her what to do

Thank you. I'm also right elsewhere and you playing silly games with selective quotes doesn't change what I really said.

you are making the assumption that her child won't be challenged and will be bored
That will happen at some point in her school life. Period (see mathanxiety's post). If you're saying I made the assumption she'll be bored in reception then you really should read my post again to clear your confusion.

Teachers are not entertainers!

I agree. Though some in MN are very funny indeed.

But there's a difference between being bored sometimes and coasting/ not progressing.

I'm very happy for my ds to get bored at school occasionally and learn to entertain himself with his own thoughts etc. but I do want him to be progressing.

clemete I understand your worries- my DD is a year younger than yours and can do all those things (though counting backwards is quite slow)... we have just viewed 4 schools ready to do our reception applications, and I was depressed to see the level of work covered- re shapes my dd knew simple polygon names at 18mo for eg. Answers when I asked questions about children who can already read were vague and even evasive.

I do not think my DD is G&T- I think all children develop at different rates and she is an early developer and a fast learner... I was the same and actually was put up a year when I began reception because I had already completed the school's reading scheme.

Think hard- can you afford independent? An academic independent school will cover the same curriculum as state schools yes, but they will cover it a year early- ie Reception in an academic leaning independent school will be working on Y1 state curriculum ime.

No idea where you live, so there may not be schools like that anyway, regardless of affordability (though most offer bursaries).

progressing

Yes, they should make it a legal obligation on schools that children should progress. At present, believe it or not, in some cases a high ability child can make zero progress in the four years from KS1 to KS2 and not be considered under-achieving by the DCSF!

Please could you give me an example of that DaL? If a child is 3 at KS1 and 3 at KS2 they are falling behind, and it would show on the schools VA scores. All children are expected to progress at half a NC level per year regardless of ability.

BrilliantDisguise, sure. Underachieving is best examined by looking at the most able pupils, so forgive me for going back to G&T / gifted pupils (top 10%).

The DCSF makes all the right sounds in irrelevant documents about underachievement being "the deficit between attainment and potential" and not "specific assessment or examination grades".

But when it comes to the crunch and actually measuring underachievement in gifted pupils ... it all boils down to SATs.

One of the G&T pdfs - I think it's "Gifted and Talented education: Guidance on addressing underachievement ? planning a whole-school approach" - explains that a (G&T) pupil is underachieving when he/she doesn't move up a level from KS1 to KS2. A pupil could be an L5A at KS1 but she's only recorded as an L3A (the famous "glass ceiling") in the records, so when she gets an L4 at KS2, she has moved "up" and is therefore not underachieving.

Clever stuff when you actually think about it!

Well- I'm not sure I've come across any school assessing KS1 children at Lvl 5 tbh.
A child moving from Lv3 at KS1 to Lv 4 at KS2 is falling behind, and most assessment co-ordinators I know would be targeting that child to improve.

Well- I'm not sure I've come across any school assessing KS1 children at Lvl 5 tbh.

Exactly! They don't. They are neither required nor encouraged to do this. As far as the school is concerned this L5A girl is just an L3.

And before we get a flood of people telling us that L5A is not common in Y2 so let's not worry about it, let me say that L4 certainly is common - a lot of KS1 kids are capable of L4 - but no one will ever know how many because these kids are only ever tested to L3A. So if they are capable of L4 a couple of years later, the school hasn't done too badly!

Do Gifted children need 2 b stretched & challenged? Is it a dismal failure of the educational system if they are not "challenged" at school? What does it mean for a child 2 b "challenged" at school?

From my own very relevant childhood experiences, I feel that being 'happy' is way more important than being 'challenged' - not that I'm sure what DaL means by 'challenged', mind.

I've got nothing against happy. I want my kids to be happy whether at home, at school or anywhere else. But that's not all I want for them. I want them to also acquire confidence, the ability to work and play in a team, life skills....

Given a choice I'd rather my kids were educated in a happy environment than kept happy in an educational environment.

Yes they do, BrokenArm. Because if they are not there is a real risk that they will become bored and disruptive. They need the challenege to be happy at school. Just like any child, they need to have something to look forward to at school. Imagine how boring and frustrating it would be for a child capable of Y3 work, to be obliged to stick only to Y1 work just because he happened to be 6yo.

You're right Clemette. So much of reception is learning how to go to school and get on with others. Boredom is no bad thing and children should know it is no excuse for bad behaviour. Not all learning is done at school.

(Speaking as parent osfa 10yo who generally scores 141/141 on standardised assessments.)

Is that really true about reception at a decent pre prep being similar to year one in a state school?

I wonder if the gap only opens up a little later on?

Well, my dd is in nursery of an independent prep, and all the work that state covers in reception they are doing now- phonics, letter formation, the key words, the number work etc, so imagine that reception continue in that vein.

We're upcountry though, I'm sure someone such as Xenia could inform about schools in London.