Do you think this is bullying?

[Aranea]

Dd1 is in reception. She was thrilled to find that she had been put into the same class as a good friend of hers, X. Dd1 started school 2 weeks before her friend, and settled in very well according to her teacher. She played with all the other children and was very confident. Her invisible friends stayed at home.

About a week after X started school she began to be quite spiteful to Dd1. X is the oldest child in the class, and I think is quite sophisticated socially. She made dd1 desperately unhappy, and dd1 kept going back for more because she just couldn't accept that X wasn't her friend any more.

After the half term break I managed to convince dd1 to steer clear of X, with the result that there were no further tragically explosive encounters. I thought everything was OK. But then the teacher mentioned to me that dd1 had very much withdrawn socially in comparison to how she had been when she started school. And I realised that dd1 was spending much of her time at school playing with invisible friends.

She tells me that X is mean to her most days. She will often shout at her apparently, and today 'She didn't shout at me! She just said a rude thing...' It turns out that when the children were lining up to go inside, X said 'I'm not speaking to that girl' to another child, and that she often does things like that.

I am getting rather worried that my dd1 is having to cope with this kind of unpleasantness on a daily basis, and that it has knocked her confidence to the degree that she is now retreating from social encounters and playing with invisible friends.

I have been organising playdates with other children, btw, and dd1 does spend some time playing with other children at school so it isn't a complete disaster! But I am concerned that there seems to be such consistent unpleasantness from this particular girl. Do you think this counts as bullying? In either case what do you think could/should be done about it?

Thanks for any thoughts.

It's sort of bullying, isn't it? I think it's certainly enough to warrant talking to the teacher about your concerns. Girls can be so bloody awful to each other sometimes.

I would have a word with the teacher, just to raise the issue.

I don't think it matters if it comes under the bullying catagory, it certainly warrents a chat with the teacher.

I had this recently with my DD who started a new school.

Teacher said she was settling in very well the a couple of weeks before half term she started having tantrums and became quite sullen. After discussion it turned out that a girl in her class was alienating DD from other girls in the class. I rang the school and asked the teacher to have a word with my DD so that she could help resolve the issue. She spoke with my DD and made my DD believe that it was her fault for being too pushy and trying to get people to like her.

I got on the phone to the school and told her teacher in firm, but no uncertain terms, that my daughter is entitled to attend school and be treated with respect by teachers and other children alike. If they are unable to do that for my daughter then I will be forced to make a formal complaint of bullying. Lo and behold the next day the teacher had ALL the girls in a separate meeting and told them all that they had to start being kind to each other or else there would be consequences.

Since then my DD has been so much happier.

I had spoken to the teacher at the end of the first half term, when dd1 was being made quite hysterically unhappy by the rejection. The TA had a word with the other girl, saying 'it's fine not to want to play with someone else, but you have to be kind about it.'

I suppose I think this is moving into a different sort of category now. Do you think the teacher will think I'm overreacting if I say I feel dd1 is being bullied? When I spoke to the teacher this afternoon about dd1's withdrawal from social encounters (before dd1 had told me everything that was going on), the teacher mentioned that X seemed so very confident and sophisticated but was also quite fragile and had been in tears on occasions.

Urgh, I feel for you Aranea as I have had similar, long term issues with one particular child with my DD (now yr 3).

I would try to encourage friendships with other children as much as possible so that your DD has an escape route from this child. But I would also speak to your DD's teachers so that they are aware of the problem. They can't do anything to help the situation if they are not aware of it.

Unfortunately girls can be so thoroughly foul to each other and it is often the least deserving that bear the brunt of the unpleasantness - you have my sympathies. Please speak to the school sooner rather than later, and best of luck with it.

Wow, well done fruitysunshine. I'm so glad to hear things were sorted out for your dd.

Bullying is when a child is made to feel bad about themselves for a sustained period of time so I odo not think the bullying word is appropriate in this case. And her behaviour has changed too.

ShellingPeas, have you managed to help your dd with it? Has anything in particular worked?

off to put dd1 bed now but will be back.

MISTAKE!!! I do not think the bullying word is inappropriate!!!!

Sorry - took so long to post that it cross posted.

The teaching staff need to deal with this now, regardless of whether X is outwardly confident but inwardly insecure. The child that bullies my DD sounds very similar - unless it is nipped in the bud quickly it will not improve. I wish I had some something sooner for my DD.

Aranea, responding to your post of 18:47 - my situation may be slightly different because my DD has a very small year group - only 4 girls in total, so not much escape from the bully, but the school has recently put the following measure in place:

spoken to all children in the class about friendship issues

spoken individually to 4 children who had been involved in verbal bullying and teasing

had some older girls (Yr 4s, but in the same class as my Yr 3 DD) take her under their wing at break and playtimes

and called in the parents of the child who had been the ringleader and spoken to them about it.

It was a little difficult because I am friendly with the mother of the dominant child, but she is aware of the issue now and still talks to me! (Phew!)

Because my DD is in such a small year she doesn't have an escape route - but I think if your DD is in a larger year group and can make some good friends away from this child then things will improve and her self-confidence will return.

Aranea, it was determination that it would not escalate into something else. My 17yr old DS was bullied for 18 months in his early secondary education which saw some pretty despicable things happen to him - I had to move him schools ultimately. It has left a lasting impression on him and I refuse to let it happen again to any of my other children. It was bad enough it had to happen to one. If you feel it needs dealing with, find the strength and face those in charge. Don't allow yourself to be made to feel as if you are making a mountain out of a molehill. Only you know your child the way you do.

Oof, I am very glad dd's class is big! It would be awful if there were no escape at all.

It is very awkward because I am friendly with X's mother who I like very much. She attempted to patch things up between the girls but found she could not control her daughter's behaviour (fair enough) and felt that she shouldn't tell her off because it was attention-seeking behaviour and she would fuel it. I disagree with this, but it isn't my place to tell her how to parent her child. Also she has other stuff going on at the moment so I don't really want to bother her with this.

Do you think a 5yo who is behaving in this rather spiteful way can be made to behave better? I am rather doubtful. I can't see how they can prevent those sort of small but misery-inducing encounters like the one in the line outside the classroom.

Also - I have advised dd1 to tell a teacher every single time X is mean to her. Do you think this is right?

Yes it is bullying (something similar happened to me and like fruitysunshine's ds, it left lasting damage. I think you should take it seriously, expect the school to take it seriously and deal with it on a whole class basis. Yes, bullies often have their own unhappinesses, but schools these days have no excuse imo for not having a proactive strategy for preventing vicitimisation of this sort.

I'm sorry (and alarmed!) to hear that, elliott. I'm feeling decidedly shaky at the idea of talking to the teacher. Desperate to get to Monday so I can go and speak to her, but worried in case I get too cross about it. I don't want to come across as neurotic and unhinged, but on the other hand I don't want to be so breezy that she doesn't realise how seriously I am taking this.

Another one here to think that you definitely should talk to the teacher. My daughter had a case of bullying (also by a girl whose mother I was and still am, very friendly with). My daughter was "sad" for a few years, but now they go to separate secondary schools she's OK. Like fruitysunshine I too am upset with myself that I did not do anything earlier. That was a huge mistake on my part and I sort of can't forgive myself for that.

I would also try as much as you can to get your daughter to be friendly with other girls. Also, get her to tell the teacher every single time that X is mean to her. Don't let this lie, please. Get it sorted sooner rather than later, but also you could read some bullying website stuff which says that the person being bullied kind of should try and not be bothered by the bullying as it's only when it upsets you that has power, but that's a very difficult lesson to learn, especially when you're in Year R.

Why can girls be so nasty? I wish I knew the answer to that one.

aranea - i am no good at posting links but the other night i posted with a very similar problem to yours. Some of the replies may help you as they helped me .Thread title was something like 'having problems with dd and finding it hard to keep it in perspective' (not that i am suggesting you are getting your problem out of perspective i hope you understand!) sorry i cannot link.

God it is horrid isn't it, you are not on your own with this problem.

also it too was in primary section

Aranea

Could you talk to the girl and her mother about it, but in a very outgoing clever way but which also sends a message that you know what's going on?: "Hi X, DD says she doesn't see much of you at school anymore, what a pity, you were both such good friends before............." Perhaps this might prompt her mum to ask her daughter what's going on........and then she might deal with it!

I would stay very friendly and calm about it though (even if you don't feel that way!).

Just a thought!

Aranea DD now in year 1 had a similar problem in reception. From startting school DD was desperate to be girl X's friend, but X would not let her join in games, she had a club that you could only join if you were 5 which included DD's best friend from nursery, called her names like stupid and ugly, would put her fingers in her ears everytime DD would try to talk to her. I kept telling DD to play with other children and luckily she did have other friends, but despite all this she still wanted to be X's friend. Just before last christmas X bit DD and DP spoke to her teacher who accepted that there was problems and DD was told to stay away from X (don't know if anything was said to X}.

Over the rest of the year I was aware from DD and other mums in the playground that numerous children had been told to stay away from X as she was getting them into trouble by encouraging them to hit other children and being cheeky to staff(including pushing DD off some playground equipment resulting in a large gash to DD's forehead). But X decided that as no one else was her friend she would now be DD's friend!!!!!! Made worse by the fact that DD told me that her teacher told her she could be X's friend, which caused me to have a crazy rant at the teacher in the middle of the playground at hometime one afternoon. Probably not the best thing I've ever done but it was a spur of the moment thing and I was so mad.

Over the summer holidays I made a concious effort not to mention X's name as I felt she had dominated our lives long enough and I didn't want to start year 1 with a load of negativity before any problems had happened. After initially being exluded from X's 'same shoe' gang, DD is now friendly with X and we've had a chat about what to do if X is horrible to her or encourages her to be horrible to other children, but DD assures me that X is nice now I'm no expert on children but I guess at such a young age they can change.

Thanks frecklyspeckly - will look for the thread now.

critterjitter - I think it has gone beyond that. The girl's mother was concerned when her daughter made mine so upset before the half term break, and tried unsuccessfully to resolve things. So we both went to see the teacher and said we were worried. I was very friendly and calm about it at that point, and said things like 'well, I'm sure dd1 can be a bit intense,' but now I feel I need to cut the crap and just get on the case on my dd's behalf.

Wandaa - that's the kind of ineffectual teacher's response I am desperately hoping not to get. How grim. I hope X is genuinely nice to your dd now - and hope our X can change too!

Its very hard for us , or you or X's parents to know what's going on here.

On the one hand it could be that X was a bit put out by your DD having lots of other friends and is being mean to your DD
Or it could be that your DD is trying to continually pal up with x and x is becoming really irritated by it (i have had a dc who had to put up with being pesterd to play with a child they disliked for 6.5 hours a day 5 days a week)
Only the staff an tell you

I think that initially it may well have been my dd trying to play with X and X finding it an irritation. But dd has definitely not been doing this since the half term break, which is why I am so bothered by the consistent unpleasantness now.