Do you think this is bullying?

[Aranea]

Dd1 is in reception. She was thrilled to find that she had been put into the same class as a good friend of hers, X. Dd1 started school 2 weeks before her friend, and settled in very well according to her teacher. She played with all the other children and was very confident. Her invisible friends stayed at home.

About a week after X started school she began to be quite spiteful to Dd1. X is the oldest child in the class, and I think is quite sophisticated socially. She made dd1 desperately unhappy, and dd1 kept going back for more because she just couldn't accept that X wasn't her friend any more.

After the half term break I managed to convince dd1 to steer clear of X, with the result that there were no further tragically explosive encounters. I thought everything was OK. But then the teacher mentioned to me that dd1 had very much withdrawn socially in comparison to how she had been when she started school. And I realised that dd1 was spending much of her time at school playing with invisible friends.

She tells me that X is mean to her most days. She will often shout at her apparently, and today 'She didn't shout at me! She just said a rude thing...' It turns out that when the children were lining up to go inside, X said 'I'm not speaking to that girl' to another child, and that she often does things like that.

I am getting rather worried that my dd1 is having to cope with this kind of unpleasantness on a daily basis, and that it has knocked her confidence to the degree that she is now retreating from social encounters and playing with invisible friends.

I have been organising playdates with other children, btw, and dd1 does spend some time playing with other children at school so it isn't a complete disaster! But I am concerned that there seems to be such consistent unpleasantness from this particular girl. Do you think this counts as bullying? In either case what do you think could/should be done about it?

Thanks for any thoughts.

We're heading into the same situation . DD made a really good friend Rose (names changed to protect the innocent, or not) during her induction, but another girl Jenny joined the class after induction. DD already knew Jenny a little, but there had been a few prior incidents where she had excluded DD, so I hoped they wouldn't become friends.

Jenny, Rose and DD became friends, but I kept getting odd snippets from DD about things Jenny has said, DD hasn't got the right things, has the wrong shaped face (wtf), random things, but alarm bells were ringing. Cue last week, DD comes home sad because she hasn't played with Jenny and Rose, Jenny has said she can't play with them anymore

Now the easiest thing is to say avoid Jenny, but DD adores Rose and during induction the feeling seemed to be mutual. DD does play with other children, but I'm so angry at Jenny, is it really wrong to hate a 5yr old (it is isn't it !).

Sorry off on my own rant there.....

Aranea - I certainly think it merits a word with the teacher, infact even I would class it as bullying. Is it cold comfort that this girl is getting a reputation, so at least you know it's not anything your DD is doing?
Unmumsnet hugs heading your way. This friendship lark is so crap isn't it.

Thanks Ixia. Your poor dd. It is horrible, isn't it, to think of sending them off to deal with this kind of thing on their own.

I know just what you mean about the anger towards a 5yo! It is very hard to keep in mind that they are just very little. Actually if I am truly honest I don't think that is any excuse and if my dd ever behaved that way I would be down on her like a ton of bricks. I am very very strict with her on being kind and thoughtful, which I am now beginning to regret a bit as she finds this completely incomprehensible and just wants to make other people happy. This isn't just me being biased mummy, the teacher did say that dd was having trouble with other children behaving in ways she (dd) would never dream of.

I am having a very tense weekend, waiting for my chance to speak to the teacher.

Plus dd2 is full of snot and vomit. Sorry, unrelated whinge there...

hi Aranea - just to say hi again and i hope it goes ok when you speak on Monday.

I too have berated myself for bringing my children up to be kind and polite and think of others feelings as it is hard to explain why x,y,or z is behaving really badly to dc. But thats my way I still believe it is going to benefit her in the end.

Am astounded at how similar many experiences of exclusion/comments etc are.

Sadly it must be a type of (un)social behaviour particular to 4 and 5 year old girls.

As a teacher I would want hear from you and know how worried you are so don't worry about coming on too strong Aranea, just be honest about it. Have a read of the anti-bullying policy, it should spell out your school's procedure. FYI ours goes something like:

1. Speak to all involved and spell out whatever the consequences are for the bullies if further episodes occur; 2. If it continues, speak to head and arrange for head to speak to bullies; 3. If it continues, speak to bullies and their parents and advise they may be temporarily excluded unless it stops. 4. Temporarily exclude; 5. Permanently exclude.

I'm paraphrasing (obviously!) but hope that helps. IME, the hardest things for the teacher are not being there in the playground to see/hear what exactly is going on and the victim not telling you as and when it happens, or giving up telling you because it didn;t stop straight away so they think 'what's the point'. I go on and on to my class every year that if it happens to them they must keep on telling as it is the only chance we have of helping them.

It is so frustrating as bullies have so many issues themselves (are the mother's problems you hinted at related maybe?)it rarely gets a quick fix but I wish you and your DD lots of luck and a speedy conclusion.

Sorry for the mammoth post...

thanks for the support frecklyspeckly. It is interesting how similar the stories are, isn't it? I'm particularly surprised by how often it seems to happen in situations where the two mothers are friendly.

pyjamababe, thank you so much for that very helpful post. It sounds as though your school is very clear on the subject - I hope ours turns out to be the same. The bullying policy doesn't spell anything out, it just talks in quite general terms. I presume that there would be some more formalised procedure set out somewhere?

I will definitely hammer home the point about telling the teacher every single time it happens, thanks for the encouragement on that. I don't want her to be perceived as a nuisance or a tell-tale who can't handle things for herself, but actually I don't think she can reasonably be expected to handle this on her own.

We just had 'friendship week' in our school, and the children got together and decided on a definition for what they feel bullying is. What they came up with: "Bullying is using words or actions to hurt someone repeatedly". I definitely think this situation fits that description!
I would persist in speaking to the school about it.

Right, loins girded, I am going to try & catch the teacher before register in the morning.

Good luck Aranea.

Funnily enough, Jenny's mum is a sort of friend, she was the first person who was friendly to me when we moved here, we get on fairly well. Jenny must take after her Dad

My DD is v. loving and doesn't have a clue about the politics of girl friendships. She is so loving and wants to be kind to everyone. I really feel for her, I hate it when people say she should toughen up, this is what happens in real life. But it shouldn't happen in real life, should it? Why is it seen as "wet" to be kind and courteous to everyone? Grrrr

Hope tomorrow goes well Aranea.

Thank you Ixia.

I've spoken to the teacher and am now having a big chunk of cake in an effort to cheer up. Teacher will speak to both girls plus the other girl who X was speaking to about dd. And they will speak to the whole class about being kind to each other. So I think that's all good.

What I'm less cheerful about was the way the teacher kept saying that I mustn't let dd see my anxiety and make her worried about being at school. I am actually a bit cross. I try so hard to be upbeat with dd, and big up her other friendships and all the lovely things she does at school, in the face of increasing negativity from her and descriptions of how she has spent her day playing with her invisible friends. I do resent the implication that I am creating the problem. And I was bothered by the suggestion that dd needed to acquire the skills to deal with this stuff as they will all be in the same class together for years. I don't think the onus should be on my dd to sort it out. I think the onus should be on the school to prevent the other child from making my dd miserable in an unprovoked way.

Anyway, I suppose I'm mostly sad that I am obviously perceived as a neurotic mother who is affecting her daughter negatively with her own neuroses. I know in the great scheme of things this isn't the important thing, and that I have actually achieved the important thing which is to get the teacher to speak to the children about it. But it doesn't feel good to know that I am seen this way.

well done for speaking out it is a shame that you were made to feel neurotic. They (teachers) often go down the route of mentioning 'life skills' if your child gets bullied/upset by someone. I know this from my own exp. and those of other mums on here. It really annoys me as all it takes off the teacher is a bloody word not to be unkind!!
For goodness sake the world is mad... why subject tiny tots to unpleasantness if avoidable. Grrr

DH (teacher) often mentions 'life lessons whenever something unpleasant happens to our dc's.. a chip that gets put in during teacher training perhaps? I know they can't be protected from some things but it still gets to me.

And what message does it send to the other girls, that they can be mean and sneaky and not get pulled up on it!

I suppose in essence it is good advice of sorts, but not particularly helpful from your point of view, given the circumstances! Of course your dd will need a range of skills to deal with all kinds of people and situations as she grows up, and your support to develop them, but it is early days yet and far more important that she feel happy about going to school and establishing some firm friendships to begin with. Something about running before you can walk springs to mind...

Oh well, you have made some progress and well done for going in. See what happens next and don't be afraid to go back or to the head if you feel the issue is just being batted back into your court. It isn't your fault and you can't fix it by sending her off with cheery wave and a forced smile every morning... Best of luck

How sad for your dd. Wait and see what happens now. If dd is still being made to feel sad by this child then go back in.

Areana it's not just girls it's boys too, my ds has the same problem in his reception class - all boys that he has grown up with in nursery, and all mums that I know very well.

It seems that once they get to school they have a bit more freedom to do what they like. My ds is also very sweet and kind, and truly believed everyone loved him.

It's heartbreaking isn't it. But we're doing karate to give him some confidence (me too btw!)