Drunk on the afternoon school run, not me by the way!

[onthepier]

I know for sure that one of the mums at school was drunk on this pm's school run, feel absolutely sick about it as my ds was in her car, knew nothing of her condition at the time until an hour ago.

I obviously know (and like) this lady, and really feel I should tell the school. I'm wondering how often she's picked up her own children while under the influence, and I know her two regularly have friends back for tea, who she obviously drives. I've often thought her general manner was somewhat erratic, sometimes completely on the ball, at other times almost on a different planet but she comes over a lovely person.

My ds is fine luckily, although I won't let him go in her car again. Would you tell the school about this? I don't want to land her in it if it was a one-off, (even if it was, in my mind it's totally unacceptable), but feel someone needs to do something to protect her own and other people's, children.

As I've been typing this I've made up my mind, I'm definitely going to speak in confidence to the school office about this.

Schools often know a lot more than you might think. If you tell them you have known her to drink drive and they have other suspicions then they should act on them.

Just out of interest, does anyone here give even the slightest toss about the woman herself and what might be behind her drinking?

Totally agree HBLB & Sidge - tell the school PLEASE!!! This may well be a very small part of a much much bigger picture. It's far easier to talk to them in the first place rather than going to other parents - judge the school's reaction - if they seem like this really is the icing on the top of the cake then leave it for them to take things forward - there are very clear procedures for this sort of thing. If not - speak with the other mums..... and if you feel brave enough, with the mother herself - I think you have a fair amount to say - and she'll probably be expecting it. Good luck, thinking of you.

Yes but that's not what the thread is about.

If she came on to mn and asked for advice, I'm sure she'd get plenty of it.

Huh????!

sorry that was a cross-post, in response to miflaw

Phew!!!!

Maybe not - but the original question has been more than answered (in fact the OP answered it herself in her first post) and threads often move away from the original point once that's happened.

Anyway, I just wondered if anyone did. It's a rule of thumb that one in seven people has a problem with alcohol (can't remember where those stats are from but my sense is that they're about right.) Even if it's one in ten, in a typical class of 30 kids that means an average of 4-8 parents with drink problems and so 2-8 kids living in a household where drink disrupts lives.

In that context - and given that some people here are keen to get Social Services in (although the thread isn't "about" that either) - I was wondering if anyone here felt sympathy for the adults concerned or even a desire to address the broader and more long-term picture.

Before anyone criticises my arithmetic those are meant to be ranges, not exact figures!

Who is keen to get SS in? I've merely observed that telling the school may be the difference between a SS report or not. That's not being keen to get them in, it's just an observation. And also, getting them involved isn't the opposite to having sympathy for the problems of the woman concerned, it's just a recognition that the safety and welfare of children may need to take precedence over empathy for the problems of an adult.

If this woman does have a drink problem then Social Service's involvement could well be a good thing. If nothing else, they can help her gain access to a wide variety of support. Fundamentally, she has a choice over her drinking problems. Her children do not.

My ex used to go and pick up our kids from school after she'd been drinking. The school teachers noticed. Sadly, the school never told me at the time. I only found out after Social Services got involved and SS had talked to the school.

Snorbs

It is in the nature of drink problems that choice does not really come into it. If it did, they wouldn't be problems. They are very difficult cycles to break.

But more generally, I know that you (all of you on this thread) are right and I am wrong. This thread makes me angry and I can't put my finger on why. But in the light of the pervading timbre of the comments so far, I do find the idea of that woman coming on Mumsnet and asking for advice richly amusing.

I'll make myself scarce now. I see this is not a thread for me.

I was the one who mentioned Social Services in the incident I had..

The school knew about the problems the woman was having and she had been under the care of SS before.

I was asked to speak to her social worker as it was me who had seen her (I was a member of staff at the time so it was in a professional capacity). I did not suggest SS should be involved-they already were.

I don't know why you find the idea of an alcoholic mother getting support on MN so amusing. This thread is responding to an OP's dilemma and backing her up in her choice. A thread which was phrased along the lines of needing support because losing control of drinking etc., would have that angle. The two are not mutually exclusive, especially on a place as big and diverse as mumsnet.

tbh, I wouldn't have bucketloads of sympathy for an adult who chose to get drunk, take a car and pick up her children and someone else's, drive them to her home and be alone and pissed with them. If that makes me a horrible person, so be it.

onthepier...you wrote "he's in tears now as I've said I don't want him going there any more"
Just wondering, what reason did you give your DS as to why he could not go round his friends home anymore?

Speaking from experience (of my telling DS they could no longer spend time with another child, for a completely different reason than the one here), this will be passed on without you having to say a word, with him saying to the friend he is no longer allowed to come round and will give the reason as to why (from what reason you said to him), which will then be passed back to the mum. Not saying this will happen, but if he is upset about it, more than likely he will tell his friend at school today.

I would guess that the mother who is drinking is probably in total denial. Having grown up with a mother like this I can speak from experience. She is the only one who can deal with it. I would tell my DS that he can have her children over to you both for his sake and theirs.

If she has a problem, you can't stop it just quietly alert support services for the children and ultimately for her for as and when she can to fix it.

The police might breathalise her on an annoymous tip off, but doubt it.

Please don't go to the other Mums. People will be so judgemental and the children will only suffer. This would be gossip, even when appearing to be done out of concern. That family will be labelled and that will be that.

Ah, yes, I lived that and even 25 years later could cheerfully throttle the well-meaning Mother who effectively left us all out in the cold.

MIFLAW I appreciate that, once the first drink has gone down, an alcoholic may well have no real choice about continuing to drink. However there is an element of choice in having that first drink. There has to be; if there really was no choice, AA's Twelve Steps wouldn't work and there'd be no such thing as an alcoholic in recovery. There is also the choice of whether to continue with such self-destructive behaviours in general or to go and get help.

Also, there are supportive threads on MN for people with drink problems. You're a top poster on at least one of them!

Snorbs

I know about AA, the 12 steps, etc. And, armed with those, then yes, the alcoholic has a choice about the first drink.

Until he or she finds that, though, the choice is perceived by the alcoholic to be no greater than "choosing" whether to drink water or eat food. It is a recognised mental illness.

And as alcoholism is sometimes nicknamed "the illness that tells you you haven't got it," actually approaching AA (or indeed anyone else who may be able to help) is often very difficult for the drunk and no one can predict what will make it possible. For me, it was the court case around a car crash, coincidentally enough - but the crash itself didn't stop me drinking and, indeed, I drank on leaving the court. And I know other people (now in recovery) who would have drunk MORE on the basis of such an incident.

You are right, too - if that woman had come to mumsnet and said, "I have a problem with drink" I am sure the reception would have been universally sympathetic and supportive. But, to compare like with like, if she had come along and said "I have just driven after drinking and did so with my own and other people's children in the car - perhaps I need help" do you think the support would have been universal then or do you think she would have got plenty of, "I'd have killed you if it was my kids," "I hope someone's reported you to the school," "what sort of parent are you?" "I would never trust you again." And how long do you think she would stick around to wait for all the wonderful sympathy and support she's guaranteed?

She did wrong. She knows she did wrong - believe me, she really does. You have no evidence that she is an unkind or even an inadequate mother. The OP is not going to risk it again. No children died or were harmed or even unhappy or scared as far as we know.

Like I say, time for me to back out of this one.

Thanks for all your posts. MELISSA, the reason I gave my ds for not wanting him to go there any more is that I'm worried about his friend's mum, she's sometimes not well so I'd rather my ds's friend played here. I have NOT said I don't want him to see him, I really like this little boy.

I saw my friend's neighbour (who brought my ds home yesterday), after the school run this morning. By then I'd already put a note in the contact box in the school office, asking if I could have a chat with the lady who deals with all social/family matters, today if poss.

My friend's neighbour caught me up on the way home, wanted to fill me in on details about yesterday while there were no children around. Basically, this lady is an alcoholic, the school have known about it for many years and are of an ongoing support to her. Her children are small but are more aware of the situation than they should be. This neighbour of hers has given me her number now, said she's part of a support network for my ds's friend's mum, and any time I'm worried about this lady's condition and know she's on her own with the children, I'm to call her.

I just feel sad for her now really, and yes, looking back I've probably mistaken signs of drunkenness for scattiness many times, but at least I know now! Feel a bit silly in a way having put a note in the school box, as the school are obviously well aware and have been for a long time! Still, better safe than sorry.

How do you know though that she was drunk?

You are going by hearsay. Have a word with the school if it makes you feel better but you don't know she was drunk.

I would still have a word onthepier with the school to say that you are aware and hoping to support the dc's by having them to your house to play with your dc. That way they know it's obvious to other parents that they can see what is going on. It might be the last bit that makes them step up their help with the mother.

onthepier, you have nothing to feel silly about. You've done the right thing. Do talk to the school as the more insight you can give them about her current state and behaviour, the better able they will be to decide a course of action.

MIFLAW, I have a lot of respect for you and what you have achieved. Alcoholism is a drug addiction like any other. Some people beat their addictions with the help of the twelve steps, some through secular approaches, and some simply decide that enough is enough.

As with all addictions, it is fundamentally a choice over whether to continue the addictive behaviour or not. It is also a choice to avoid organisations, information and/or support that could help the addict move past their addiction. I'm not saying it's an easy choice; if it was, my ex would've likely stopped years ago and she'd not have gone on to lose jobs, friends, relationships and our children.

If this woman did post on mumsnet "I got drunk, I drove to school, I picked up my and someone else's kids then drove them home" then, yes, she probably would get castigated. It's an appallingly irresponsible and potentially lethal thing to do. Whether she drank because she was an alcoholic or just someone with no sense of responsibility is irrelevant to the act itself. Even if she is an alcoholic she still bears full responsibility for her actions. To ignore an alcoholic's poor choices and to not hold them accountable for their actions will merely enable the alcoholism to continue.

I am not suggesting that she not be held accountable for her actions, although it is probably more helpful to judge on the outcomes and, as I say, this time no one was actually hurt.

Also, there is definitely a double standard in operation on this thread - it is understandable that someone might do the school run after making an explicit (ie non-addiction-driven) choice to drink ("girly lunch") but not if someone feels compelled (addiction). That's screwed up IMHO.

Actually, in my experience, it's a very easy choice not to drink - most alcoholics who make it have already done a good job of ruining their lives and desperately want things to change - but one needs first to be aware that it is a possible choice and that there is a problem in the first place.