Girls not allowed to wear trousers to school? I thought we were in the 21st century?

[TheYearOfTheCatMPADist]

My DD is due to start primary school in September. I have been reading through the school's info pack, and I am really surprised (and hacked off) that the school specifies for winter school uniform, girls must wear a skirt & tights, and not trousers.

Is this normal? It seems so unnecessary. I can't really put into words how I feel, as it is pretty late, but it seems to be reinforcing gender stereotypes.

I am considering raising the issue with the head teacher, but would appreciate any views.

I agree with Olihan's post which I've cut and pasted here.

"Governors have very little say in the uniform policy, other than signing the finshed policy.

According to our head, it is actually against all the human rights stuff to refuse to let girls wear skirts. In the same way it would go against the boys' human rights to refuse to let them wear a skirt if they want to. Unless a majority of the parents sign a waiver to say they do not want to uphold that part of the law then girls are entitled to wear trousers and can claim discrimination if they are refused.

Someone also said, entirely correctly, that primary schools can not enforce uniform, they can set out what they would like the children to wear but they can not take any action if you don't make your child wear it. Secondary and independent schools are different though."

I was deputy head of a school, and when reviewing the uniform list, we investigated all the issues to do with stipulating what should/should not be worn. We were advised by the LEA to issue a single list which would say:

Grey trousers/shorts/skirts/dresses
White polo shirts
Red sweatshirts (sweatshirts with school logo may be purchased from the school office).

Etc.

Theyearofthecat - try speaking to your LEA adviser.

I'm with you Bloss, as far as I can see there is no evidence that girls participate less in cycling than boys relative to other sports where clothing is immaterial. I find skirts far more comfortable than trousers and especially jeans.

Have just had a meeting with the head teacher.

Too angry to type!

I will try to compose myself & give an update.

ok - below is my verbatim note of the meeting. I would value any perspective or advice on what to do next. The head's attitude was that her mind was made up, before I even had an opportunity to discuss it. I am v v v angry.

I referred to the prospectus and explained I was hoping to discuss this (I had already told her I on the phone I wanted to discuss the uniform policy) I said there were a number of potential issues, for example, girls wearing skirts is a visible gender stereo-type, the potential to restrict activities, e.g. exercise, sitting on gym floor cross legged showing pants etc.

The Head cut in and replied ? 'We find it?s not an issue with our age group, and if it was, we generally find it is as a result of inappropriate adult influence, which would give us cause for concern. I will not be changing the uniform policy. It?s not compulsory, but we encourage children to wear the uniform. It?s your choice what to send your daughter to school in, but friends tend to single out children who are different and ask them why.'

Me - That?s why I want to find out the process for changing the policy to give parents the choice, rather than singling out my child.

I will not be changing the uniform policy.

Really, without even explaining to me what the process is to raise the issue?

We had a consultation 4 years ago on uniform ? no-one raised it during that.

Were they asked specifically on their view on trousers for girls?

No ? we are a traditional school. You are the first person to have ever raised it as an issue. No other parents feel this way.

Perhaps they do, but they haven?t felt strongly enough to raise it with you.

I doubt it ? parents feel very comfortable raising issues with me.

Really?

Me - I?m not suggesting to change the whole uniform, just that the guidance on the prospectus indicates grey dress / pinafore. I suggest it could be amended to indicate dress / pinafore / trousers.

No, it?s only guidance, you can send your child to school in whatever you want ? it?s not compulsory. I will not be changing the guidance, not for one person.

Really, because by specifying not trousers, it gives the impression that there is no parental choice.

If you want to dress your child as a boy, and buy boys' trousers, that?s your parental decision.

They make trousers for girls you know.

Yes, but it looks boyish and drab.

Thank you for your time, I think I will take you up on your offer to write a letter to the Board of Governors.

Bump anyone?

Definitely raise it with the Board of Governors. I would also raise it with the LEA.

Her views about "If you want to dress your child as a boy, and buy boys' trousers, that?s your parental decision. " should be made known to governors and LEA. They are outdated, prejudiced and ignorant.

Do you know who the parent governors are? It would be worth talking to them and asking them to raise the issue on your behalf at a governor meeting, as well as writing to the Chair of Governors.

Well done for keeping your cool.

Blimey, she's not filling me with confidence if you have any other issues with the school. Did you bring up the issue of discrimination and human rights? Ie, that they must be allowed to wear them.

Our reception teacher also said that with the way the foundation stage curriculum has changed over the last year, that trousers are by far the most practical choice for reception aged children.

Getting changed for PE is easier because there are no tights that turn iside out, they are warmer as the curriculum requires a lot of outdoor play.

I'll keep thinking.

Got to do school run now but I would start drafting a letter to the Governors iiwy.

Message withdrawn

Just out of interest, what was the HT wearing and what do the rest of the staff wear?

The Head was wearing a skirt today, but I have also seen her in smart trouser suits (I think).

Her attitude does stink, and I found her implication that me being concerned for my DD's modesty suggests 'inappropriate adult influence which is a cause for concern' very worrying indeed, and quite frankly, offensive.

Her argument and thinking are flawed - she says parents don't want the choice of wearing trousers - yet they have never been asked. When I asked if the guidance could be changed to show dress / pinafore / trousers - she said no, because the parents don't want it. If they don't want it, fine, other parents can dress their DDs in skirts or dresses if they want - but at least they have the choice.

To say 'this is a traditional school' just screams - 'we don't want diversity', and I am shocked by her implication that if my child wears trousers she could be bullied, but that it's my choice.

I also don't really understand the issue of policy / guidance. Initially she said she wasn't going to change the uniform policy, then later when I was asking how to go about getting a policy change, she said we don't have a uniform policy - this is only guidance - it seems very semantic.

Anyway, now I am on the hunt for some nice grey trousers - no polyester.

The Year of etc - absolutely agree with you. What drives me particularly mad is people who keep harping on how trousers "look" on girls - what the fuck has appearance got to do with it? Apart from, of course, it's so terribly important to judge females on their appearance. Anorexia anyone?

Year of - will your daughter be happy to be the only one in trousers? Or are there others doing it too?

Hullygully - what a really perceptive point!

The thing is, although children at this age probably don't really care that much whether they wear trousers or a skirt, it is laying the groundwork for much more awareness later on. It's not as if you can turn round at 10 and try to get our DDs to start wearing trousers when they have had 6 yrs of wearing only skirts at school.

Lotster - I don't know of any other mums who are considering this, although I haven't discussed it with any of them. The HT said I was the only parent who had ever raised it as an issue, and the 'guidance' is written in such a way as to give no indication that it is purely guidance, or give any room for variation - so it is unlikely that any other parents will do it.

I sought the advice of my very wise 86 yr old neighbour - she said to make sure I buy the nicest trousers I can, and go ahead & send DD to school in them. That way, all the other children will want to wear them too.

But I am in a quandary - I don't want my DD to feel stigmatised, but nor do I want to force gender stereo-types on her. I feel so silly - I genuinely was shocked when I read the prospectus last week, given that both boys & girls wear trousers at the school nursery.

In that case, (and just if I were you), I'd mix it up a bit. Let her fit in and wearing a skirt some days, so she's not completely different to her friends, then maybe on more cold/active days, send her in the trousers.

That way you get to make your point without alienating her as you suggest. There have been arguements for tradition / not stereotyping / practicality etc., but this way, I'm sure given time she'll develop her own stronger sense of what she wants, which surely is the most important thing over all, both on this matter and in life in general.

Message withdrawn

Thanks. The attitude of the HT really rang alarm bels for me. I am viewing our local private (girls only) school this afternoon.

Good lord. I am anti-trousers for schoolgirls, but that HT is disturbing. I would be very, very wary of that school, and not just because of the trouser issue.

I'm not sure you'll find a private school that allows girls to wear trousers, though!! (Though I hope, for your sake, that I'm wrong).

You may find that other girls want to wear trousers if your DD is doing it (the HT may have a revolt on her hands!)

Quick update - The private school was really lovely & homely, and all the girls looked like lovely mollycuddled lambs. [Gooey emoticon]

We are lucky enough that there is 1 place left for the coming year. I just have to wait until Monday to get formal confirmation of my DD's place.

For me, the trouser issue doesn't present such a big deal in a small girls only school - it is somehow different that there isn't a differentiation between girls and boys.

Good point, YOTC!

I'm so glad you've found your DD a place at a nice school. Mollycoddled lambs sound lovely!

I think you've both had a narrow escape...

One of the positives of DD's (lovely) school is girls can wear trousers.
They have a summer dress as well but DD wears shorts underneath as she is very very active, always on the climbing frame etc and she didn't want to show her knickers. In winter she wears skirt or trousers depending how she feels.

Impractical uniform really pisses me off...who invented gym slips, gym knickers and 20 inch skirts for 18 year old girls? It has to be middle aged men, that's who. One school I rejected out of hand when it specified a 20 inch skirt length for the girls, well fine when you are 12, but at 18, and nearly 6 foot tall? No way.

Tights are a nightmare, I hate them, always have, always seemed to end up with the crotch halfway down my thighs and too tight round the middle/hips. With DD I buy them one age group higher so she can properly pull them up.

I wouldn't send my DD to that school Yearof CAT as I bet none of the children would pick on her for wearing trousers (and some girls would copy her for sure) but I bet the Head would pick on her. I know someone whose mother always told her women looked awful in trousers and made her ride her horse side saddle with a skirt on!

My great aunt went to Cheltenham ladies college and they used to have a teacher who would measure the length of your knicker leg! Girls were randomly picked and had to lift their skirts and the teacher held a ruler on their leg to see if they were the regulation length knickers. Had to be 12 inches I think, something like that, real halfway down the thigh knickers!

Now that IS oppression.
And a bit creepy too.

Measuring your knicker legs!

I do think there are very few nice designs of girls' school trousers. Wouldn't it be wonderful if some high profile designer took on the challenge? I might write to Vivienne Westwood and see if she would be interested.

send her in trousers, much more modest and better forher to run around my daughter will have to wear trouses because shes a muslim (cant show off her legs) but you dont need an exuse its her right to wear them

Still standard practice in all grammar and prep schools in Northern Ireland. Having went to one, I can honestly say it wasn't a bad thing. I didn't feel second class to the males etc. Thats just the way it was and it looked so much better than the cheap trousers the girls from the secondary schools squeezed themselves into. I now live in Scotland and am totally shocked at the lack of proper school uniforms- rather than being socialist it instantly marks out the well off and the not so!

??? What's with the thread necromancing?

My kid's school better not try on any of this bollocks with skirts only btw. Girls can look smart in trousers. In winter, you need trousers if you are going to be forced to stand around freezing playgrounds. End of. Anyone who wants to make my girls suffer for being girls can come and explain themselves to my face. And then deal with the shit ton of greif I will give them in every media outlet until they stop being such knobs and give girls an equal chance at comfort and health.

But...old, old thread.

Human rights and anti-discrimination issues
While pupils must stick to the school's uniform policy, schools must be considerate to the needs of different cultures, races and religions. Schools must always act reasonably and sensibly in accommodating religious requirements, providing they do not pose a threat to security, safety and learning, or compromise the well-being of the school community.
Schools must not discriminate on the grounds of gender, race, disability, sexual orientation or belief.