Separating twins in reception - been told its not up for discussion by Head!

[HammerHeadShark]

I would be very grateful for some advice/experiences of this. My non-id girls start reception in September. I had enquired to the school office and also on an open day of any specific policy on separating twins and was told there was none though separation was encouraged and usual, but it could be doscussed. Last night at a prospective parents evening I was told by the Head very firmly that it is school policy to separate twins and not up for discussion, after asking when it would be decided if they were separate or together.

I had been leaning towards keeping them together but am now shocked and upset at the "not up for discussion" stance, as I feel I only want my DCs to be happy at a big transition time.

I wrote her a letter outlining my concerns re: the confusion over policy, asking what would be in place to support them if separated and also if they could be placed back together if the separation did not work.

I have been summoned to the office next week to discuss and feel about 10 years old again! Would be very grateful for any advice on what to say or experiences of similar issues. I am wary of being labelled a troublemaker before they even start school, but feel I do need to voice my concerns. Many thanks for any thoughts!(Will also post on multiple board)

My ds is in a class with 2 sets of twins (1 form entry so no choice) but both are fine and socialise with other children on an individual basis.

I think that you should be consulted by the HT, and that her approach so far is not helpful - you shouldn't feel that you are a trouble-maker, you know your dc best and that should be respected.

I am also a twin and my sister and I were in the same class throughout primary school - we are very different, my dt is very academic, I am more sociable! However, we both established different friendships at school, and had our own 'best' friends throughout our primary years.

I think it is important to recognise that they are so little still, and that school is a huge deal anyway, let alone dealing with separation from your dt as well...

My parents asked that we be separated at secondary school - my sister and I didn't find this out until we were called into different form groups on the first day! I really benefitted from this, as I was then seen as an individual rather than 'one of the twins'. My sister struggled, though, as she is quieter and the school itself was more sporty / drama orientated than academic. At age 12,though, we were both far more able to deal with being apart, and could recognise and accept the reasoning behind it - at age 5 I am not sure that we would have.

I think you have to have faith in your own convictions and stick to your guns, just be pleasant and firm! It does sound like it is a decision that is made by the school and you, as a parent, should be considered to be a significant factor in ensuring a smooth transition for your dc into school life, so your views should be respected.

Good luck .

Lizipads makes some very good points.

The OP is (of course) entitled to make her views known to the Head but talking of 'sticking to her guns' and 'being firm' misses the point. Decisions about which child goes in which class are for the school to take and no parent is ever in a position to insist that their child does or does not go into a particular class.

MadBAd...Partnership with parents is now recognised as being an important part of the process of enabling dc to achieve their full potential at school. For the HT to be so dismissive of the OPs viewpoint is wrong. She DOES need to be assertive if she feels that this approach is wrong for her dc.

We separated our dts but that was our choice.

The school were very happy for the decision to be ours and were helpful and interested.

It's been absolutely ok and I don't regret it. But the head at your school is being rather unhelpful with that approach Would she elaborate further? She should at least listen to what you have to say.

Superduper - Yes, quite. Any HT should listen to what parents have to say and should, wherever this is feasible and reasonable, accommodate parents' preferences.

But I still think it's a little harsh to say that the HT has dismissed the OP's views. It isn't clear who at first indicated to OP that there was no fixed policy on placing twins together or apart. Maybe it wasn't the HT. Maybe it was someone who wasn't actually in a position to make such a statement. But, in any event, it seems the HT offered a meeting within a few hours of receiving OP's letter. That hardly seems dismissive.

Of course, we all as parents want to push for what we think is best for our children. And I'm not here to defend the HT. But, looking at this as a school governor and speaking generally, I think there is a potential difficulty whenever a parent wants a school policy (where one exists) to be set aside for their child. There's a difference, I think, between consulting parents and giving them a veto over school policies on whatever issue.

Equally though, MadBad, the OP is the advocate of her dc.

She states that the HT was absolute in her response to her query when she stated "very firmly that it is school policy to separate twins and not up for discussion". This, to me, is dismissive.

Yes, a meeting has been scheduled and hopefully the OP will have a fair hearing. Going on the above, though, it would be possible to assume that a decision has already been made.

In line with the 'every child matters' approach, the HT should value the viewpoint of the parent. Of course, parents cannot dictate or veto school policy willy-nilly but it is of huge importance that the transition to school is a positive experience for every child, and it can not be considered a bad thing that a parent questions a policy which may prove to be detrimental to their child.

Superduper - Again, quite. I don't disagree with anything that you say, although I guess that in this particular instance the policy (such as it is) is aimed not only at transition to school but also at the totality of the school experience.

I said that we are all advocates for our own children. I am very much in favour of parents questioning school policies - especially those which are designed around the school's needs rather than the childrens' - but, for reasons of democracy and accountability, I also believe very strongly that where a school's governing body has adopted a policy on whatever topic, that is the policy which ought to be applied. Equally, if the policy is to be changed that ought to be done formally after proper consultation, rather than in an ad hoc way for individual children. Again, I'm speaking generally here.

I am not a governor so I guess that I am not aware of the due-process side of it!

I hope that the OP has a fair hearing and that the needs of the dc are considered - presumably a policy on twins could state that the decision about separation should be determined on the basis of discussion between the HT and the parents?

Also, I believe that the initial transition into school has an important bearing on the school experience as a whole, not just the settling in period exclusively.

Hopefully, the OP will resolve this to the advantage of her dc.

MadBad - I can see your point of view when it's a policy that applies generally to all children. But a policy on separating twins clearly on has a bearing on a very few children.

Surely schools have to consider the needs of the individual child?

Your approach seems to be so strict - obey the rules or go elsewhere.

Modern democracy does NOT require that the needs of minority groups be subordinated to those of the mass.

How would you respond to the other thread tonight, about the cruel head who refused to countenance a term-time holiday for a child whose father has cancer? Would you demand the head barked 'no holidays, those are the rules'?

Sorry, edam, I have obviously not conveyed my views clearly.

I was talking generally (as I said more than once). I neither said nor implied that people should obey the rules or go elsewhere. What I said or attempted to say - again speaking generally - was that anyone who didn't like the rules should lobby for change but should do this through the appropriate channels (which are open and accountable) rather than negotiating a special deal for their child. In most cases, this probably means raising the matter with the governing body, whose decisions are minuted and published. To invent a trivial example: if the school uniform policy demands lace-up shoes but your child can't tie laces, it is better (in my view) to press for a change to the uniform policy so that all children can (if they choose) wear velcro-fastening shoes, rather than just send your child to school in his velcro-ed shoes.

Nor have I argued that the interests of minorities should be subordinate to those of majorities. The HT's frankly unenviable task is ensuring, as best they can, that the needs of all the pupils are met. Sometimes the needs of some pupils will be in conflict and so a balance will have to be struck somewhere. But we're getting a long way from OP's situation now and I don't think this is helping.

As for the other thread, I haven't seen it and am wary of offering a view on it. But I can safely say, based on your summary, that I would most definitely not demand that the HT bark anything, let alone 'no holiday, those are the rules'. In such compelling circumstances, I would expect the HT to authorise the absence. If I remember rightly, HTs have discretion to authorise an absence of up to 10 days in a year and I'd expect any reasonable HT to use that discretion. If the holiday was longer than two weeks, I'd expect the HT to do whatever needed to be done to obtain approval from the LEA or whoever else might need to approve it.

I do love MN but am always a bit when people tell me what my opinions are, especially when those 'opinions' bear little relation to what I've actually said.

Thanks for the many replies - extremely interesting thought provoking. I shall try and answer some of the queries.

Someone asked why I was thinking of asking the dts what they wanted - well to be honest I hadn't considered it before it was mentioned a couple of times on this thread and still have mixed feelings about whether to ask them as such or explain how they are likely to be with some nursery friends and meet up with each other at playtime etc.

Whoever felt that I will already have been branded a touble maker by writing a letter asking to clarify some issues - I will be quite disappointed if this is the case. I did ask the Head Teacher twice at the parents evening if there was an opportunity to discuss this issue, in case I had got the wrong end of the stick, but was told very firmly that it was policy to always separate twins and when I asked if this could be discussed was told "no". I do agree that there are times to rise above issues and let things go but equally I feel strongly that I need to have my children considered as individuals, and my concerns at least heard. I tried very hard to compose a courteous letter (at the recommendation of the DTs current pre-school manager who felt I should address this ASAP) thinking this would be more coherent (and less emotional!) than speaking in person in the first instance.

I do agree that parents should not expect school policies to be waived, however good we think the reasons are, which is why I attempted to find out about the policy before submitting an application. I phoned the school office and also asked the teacher escorting us on the tour on an open day last year - to be told both times that separation was encouraged but no fixed policy. I would not expect all staff to know details of policies but would expect to be referred to the appropriate person for an answer. If I had known in time that there was such a rigid policy I could have made a more informed decision as to whether to apply or not.

I do appreciate hearing back from the Head so promptly and the suggestion of a meeting. I feel the matter of separation is probably a done deal but hope we can have a discussion about how the school supports multiples separated for the first time in addition to starting school.

Thanks again for all responses.

hi there, just wanted to give you my opinion as an identical twin who was in the same class with my sister from the very beginning until Alevels. At the time I think I hated it at times but looking back it was great to always have a companion and we would compete against each other,not in a bad way it used to help us drive each other forward and succeed.The one thing I would say is maybe being together means you don't make as many friends because I guess you don't need to as you have each other.WSo my real opinion would be keep them together but I must add that I am saying this as the more dominant twin so if you asked my sister she might tell you another story Mainly as a parent though you should definitely have a say in the way your children are educated so make sure you voice you opinions/concerns at your meeting, sorry for the long post and I hope the meeting goes well for you

Do the Govenors really get caught up with such nonscence as to whether a child wears lace up or velcro shoes?

My concenr with the Governing body making a rule over "twins" is that they and very few other body's know very much about their habits - very little research has been done on their education in comparisin to singletons - which is what you'd expect - to have such a rigid policy suggests simple ignorance in twin orientated issues.

Dancingbear - In short, no. Governing bodies discuss policies, not individual children. The HT would probably invite the GB to agree any change in the uniform policy, yes. Encouraging parents to abide by the policy, though, is the HT's concern not the governors'. I hope no school has such a restrictive policy that it specifies how shoes would fasten. It was a deliberately silly, invented example, so as not to encroach on anyone's real life issues.

Oh and how do you know what governing bodies know? The DCSF and LEA bombard them with information and I'm impressed by how much my fellow governors do know about education theory. If you don't like the legal framework for school governance, please campaign for change - there's plenty of scope.

I wish the OP all the best for her meeting. I'm sorry I strayed off into general questions of how school policies are decided and will leave the thread now.

Hammerheadshark, I was a regular on TAMBA when I was pregnant and the DTs were little, but migrated here after a couple of troll episodes! I'm afraid I don't recognise your posting name here - any clues as to who you were on TAMBA? .

Re settling the girls in...are there going to be other children starting at the school from their current pre-school? Do they each have a particular friend who will be going with them? My DTs are at the nursery of the school they will be going to and each has developed a particular friendship - DT1's best friend will be going into reception and I have requested that they be put in the same class. Unfortunately DT2's best friend will be attending a different school so I have talked to the nursery teachers about ensuring that she has a couple of her other friends in her class - they are thinking about running some settling in sessions in the specific class groups this term. I have explained to the DTs that they will not be in the same class in reception and to DT2 that her best friend will not be going with her - the idea of separation from each other does not phase them at all, but DT2 is upset that she will not be with her friend.

Obviously our scenario is slightly different, as we are already at the school and I am very involved on committees etc so know a lot of the teachers and admin staff. But this wasn't the case when DD1 started - we knew 2 other families whose children were starting in her year who live on our road and I asked the office if it would be possible for these children to be in the same class. We also arranged play dates during the summer holidays so that the children could get to know each other and therefore have friendly faces on their first day.

Perhaps even if your girls have not formed firm friendships with other children from their pre-school who will be going to their primary school, you could find out which of those children are going to be in your girls' classes and arrange some play sessions beforehand. They might not end up as life-long friends, but having a familiar face on their first day might lessen the anxiety of being separated from each other.

Sorry for the long and rambling reply - I hope you can make some sense of it and there is something helpful in there .

MadBad, I was merely responding to your post - asked some questions because I was rather taken aback at what seemed to be a hardline stance.

Shame you seem to think that's wrong in some way.

We thought long and hard about this. The general policy at the school is to put twins into separate classes on the well-aired grounds of letting them find their own space etc. It's a 3-form entry school which takes in from a variety of pre-school settings and they try to keep children from the same nursery/pre-school together, Our girls are non-ID, different hair/eye colouring etc, have different interests, strengths and weaknessees(!), are evry confident and independent, which comes of being the younger children with older siblings and a house that seems premanently writhing with other people's children, too. So we went against the grain and asked for them to be kept together, which means that the 7 children frion their nursery are all in the same class. We know their class teacher and TA well and we were all absolutely clear that we don't want them referred to as 'twins' and we don't compare and contrast, however tempting that might be. They sometimes play together at school, but more often play with other friends and many of their classmates don't realise that they're sisters even after 3 terms. On a logistical aspect it is soooo much simpler. Dropping off, collecting there's no allegations of unfairness and it means that I can go on school trips, help in class occasionally without favouring one over the other. Were they in separate classes, I probably wouldn't take such an active part in school life.
Later on when they can make their own way, they may want to go their own way and that's fine too. But just beacuse they're in the same class now doesn't necessarily mean that they'll be in each others' pockets.

Edam - Not wrong to ask questions in any context. Bit odd, though, to claim to know what I think (ref the holiday in term time question).

My nieces are non ID twins. They went to a tiny school where there was only one class for their age so they were together all day in class and at home and htey fought like cat and dog. They also said they were referred to as "the twins" all the time.

When they went to secondary they were in different classes (they are very different children) and they are much less agressive with each other at home now.

They also now have separate sets of friends whereas before they were treated as a double act in all social events. Now they have spearate interests. They both say they like being apart so they can be their own person.

I suspect the school policy is there to allow the twins to have a chance to stand on their own two feet without constant reference to their sibling.

At the schjools I have had dealings with it is has been policy to split up twins and I think most parents want that.I don't get what the down side is really as no other child is going to have a family member in their class.
I do have a friend with 14 yr old twin boys who has insisted they be put back together in the same class.Bizarre!

Katie not every sibling has the relationship twins have. Every sibling doesn't have to share their first day at school, share their Mummy on that day - when they might be feeling scared and vunerable.

For many twins that bond is very powerful, most twin parents I know feel that they should be able to influence when/if that split occurs.

Hi, Haven't read all the replies, but my DH is an identical twin and he whishes he and his brother had been separated at school. They were together all the way though to 18!
He feels that they would have had a better time at school and developed their own groups of friends and identities - they were always knwon as the twins rather than by their names.

A friend of mine has twins and she was worried about them being separated, but the school they went to did separate them and she is really pleased as they have distinct groups of friends each, but still see each other at break time. She said it was great as the more shy one has really come out of his shell instead of hiding behind his brother and is now very out going.

Hope this helps.

i'm a twin and we were separated from infants school up as were other twins its to enable you to make own friends and be individual

they did try us in same class to start and it didnt work we stuck to each other its my twin brother by the way and we used to fight too lol

but we just were used to being around each other and i think it helped to have a break from each other to have our own friends we always played at break time with our own sets of friends and each others

Madbad, we really seem to be at cross purposes for some reason - I didn't tell you what you said, I asked some questions to try to clarify it.

An honest attempt to make sure I'd understood, that's all. Dunno why we are somehow managing to rub each other up the wrong way. Maybe it's one of things about 'cold' communication via printed words on a website.

I had the same conversation as you with the HeadTeacher about the separation of my twins 3 years ago. I felt really narked by the THIS IS OUR POLICY, but she did say it was open to further dicussion when they had settled into reception, if things hadn't worked well.
But despite my fears, they really did benefit from the separation.
Also I got to make friends with 60 mothers in reception not just 30 , and there was less problems over party invitations etc.
My hackles rose at being bossed around and told WHAT WAS BEST FOR TWINS by people who had never had them, but it worked fine.
But maybe they would have loved being together, who knows?