Anyone know if Year 2 level 3's had to do the level 2 paper?

[karise]

Or do they just do the level 3 paper???

"having them do both can very occasionally flag up the odd surprise on the day."

This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the process involved in arriving at a judgment for Key Stage 1 assessment.

Your teacher assessment in Y2 has to be backed up by masses of evidence, a very small part of which is the test.

If a child did surprise you 'on the day', you wouldn't be able to award them that level anyway, since it wouldn't be backed up by evidence of teacher assessment - they simply would not be secure at that level.

This isn't new - it was brought in 5 years ago, along with this publication.

We have been moderated twice now in our normal LEA moderation cycle (today in fact) to ensure we comply with these 'new' guidelines.

It was made very clear to us last year when DS2 was in Y2 that the tests were a small part of the overall picture. I'm amazed at how some schools turn this into a stressful experience for the children. I asked DS2 last year if he'd done any SATs papers and he said "What?" And he's a pretty switched on little boy. I really had to probe until he said that they had done some booklets in groups with the TA.

I agree with Feenie's last comment wholeheartedly. We had a couple of children who scored a 2c in their writing tasks. However, we know that this is not their normal level. All our teacher assessments throughout the year show that they are a now a 1a. Just because they have achieved 2c for one piece of work does not mean that that is the appropriate level for them. Our grading is made on the basis of on-going, systematic, rigorous assessment throughout the whole year.

We are being moderated this year.

My DCs school is doing APP this year (assessing pupil progress). They are having to prove a child meets a target 3 times to acheive that level.
Its actually alot more work than just marking the test, but obviously a much more reliable result.

I'm not going to get into an argument over it Feenie, as I've made it clear that I disagree with the assessment proceedures I've seen. My point was that some schools and parents still place too much emphasis on the tests. You're right, the level would not be awarded, but that doesn't stop assessment coordinators from insisting that children are given the level 3 test if they've performed better than expected on the level 2.

Maybe it's because I've seen it in schools with very vocal parents and where coordinators feel that they need to cover their backs. Personally I think that when all the evidence is pointing to a particular level (say a secure 2a) it's futile and more confusing for children and parents to test at level 3.

Then we are in agreement!

We will never get rid of SATS until teachers are confident in their teacher assessment, and schools who score pupils as a level which they just 'squeaked' in a test are slowing down the move towards this.

Completely ! Sorry if I sounded a little fractious .

So, in answer to the OP, they shouldn't do both tests, but it's possible that in some schools they will .

My own children will be going to school in Wales where we'll avoid the lunacy of SATS and they will hopefully get the sort of great play-orientated Foundation and Key Stage 1 that I had as a child.

My comments on 'stressful' were more related to other threads I've seen where children are taken into the hall to do tests, as well as the fact that children seem to know that these are SATs and that they're doing, for example, Level 2 and then Level 3. I think sending papers home to practise potentially raises the stress level and the idea that this is in any way important. I've never even seen a KS1 paper and I've had 2 children do them.

My comment about some children sitting both papers due to poor teacher assessment wasn't criticising teachers it was only an issue because the teacher has been off sick since February so has missed a huge chunk of the children's learning.
The children who surprised us by getting a 2a or 2b have been steadily improving over the last few weeks, I have been running extra numeracy sessions with these children and have been building up evidence of their progress to support this improvement. The papers are being moderated today and tomorrow so I have put all my evidence with the papers to support the results from the test. Unfortunately the class teacher has not seen any of this which is why she was still assessing the children as a level 1.

Sounds like you are doing a sound job of assessing them under the circs, Icanonlytry.

I agree and I hope that the teacher recognises the work you've been doing in her absence Icanonlytry .

Why would they ahve to do the level 2 paper if they didn't get the level three? They should only do one paper. If a child sits the level three paper and doesn't achieve a level three, the teacher then uses her professional judgement to decide whether the child is really a 2A and not a three or whether the child had a bad day and is a 3..The teacher should have extensive evidence of this by this point in the year. The test should be an aid to the teacher's own assessment and knowledge of the childrne and should not give the final mark.
Teachers should not really be particularly surprised by the outcome of tests as thier assessment should be on going, all year.
Unfortunately, some teachers have lost thier confidence and ability to trust thier own instincts and some schools have stopped allowing teachers to do this.
There endeth the rant form primary teacher!

Watching dd1 doing SATs for first time has reminded me what a pile of crap it all is. Dd1's teacher is fab and is at great pains to justify why dd1 gets the levels she does, even though I'm not that familiar with the KS1 & 2 curricula. But I do teacher KS3 english and I can see very clearly that there is no correlation between the levels at KS2 and KS3. Some of the work I see dd1 doing that gets one particular level would actually be awarded something completely different if she was aged 11 or 12. I think KS1/2 are more stingy in the way levels are awarded than at KS3.

DD said that they had the Maths test yesterday and the tables were seperated etc. When I asked her she said the test was "Sooooooo easy" with a laugh, so she must have done well. I asked whether the whole class had the same test and she said yes so it must be a Level 2 she did. I was only curious after seeing this thread. I wonder if she'll get to do a Level 3 paper today. Seems doubtful as today they're doing the writing test and tomorrow it's Art Skills Day or something at school.

Confused . Guess I'll find out in a few weeks when they send her report.

dd1 is much better at literacy than she is at numeracy. She was given the level 3 maths paper to do and her teacher said her score was on the borderline (only 11 out of whatever it was out of or somesuch) but don't know whether she will just have this as her final level (which I now assume would be 2a?)

Probably
Whatever!

They only have to get 13 out of 30 on the level 3 paper to get a 3c, so she's hardly far off.

Not secure at that level then, surely...would depend on what the teacher assessment said, whether it could back that up.

She'd be better off at a 2a which is the more secure assessment I would have thought. If she was a bit more confident I think she'd have a chance of a 3 but she doesn't rate her ability and so gets in a tizz. I don't really think it matters anyway - I'd rather she felt happier when dealing with maths than the panic she seems to be getting into and she keeps saying 'why am I on top table for maths - I can't do it!'

Trouble is, I think her teacher has bigged her up so much for her literacy that she feels that anything that falls under this standard is a sign of failure. Bloody SATs. I'll be really cross if she starts losing her love for school because of all this level business. She seems very serious this year

I am scottish and have lived in england for 2 years now, just a little explaination of my complete lack of knowledge on all things sats!!

My 6 yr old yr2 dd tells me she has to go in with the yr1's (with 3 others from her class) while the rest of her class do maths tests. She tells me she does the yr1 maths with the 3 others and all the rest of the yr1's. This was told to me last week and apparently has happened a few times to her. I know she really struggles with maths but thought she was doing fine with english but she has also told me the same for her english.

It is really effecting her confidence in her abilities and makes me sad. After reading this thread I realise it must have been something to do with the sats.

Thanks for all your responses! I've obviously touched on a subjest close to the heart of a lot of people
My main concern about taking both papers was that DD is very focussed on where she is now. I worry that she will often just not bother with 'easy' work or make silly mistakes. We have spoken to her lots of times about how we know she can do it, but it's upto her to PROVE to the teacher that she can. She will often then complete the higher level tasks with 100% accuracy. Does that make any sense?
If DD was asked to do the really easy paper (her words not mine) & she did badly, I would worry that her teacher would not be so keen to let her sit the level 3 paper.
I suppose I'll find out when we get her report in July!
Thanks guys!

I think SATS are completely ridiculous. The overlap of level 3 betwen KS1 and KS2 is strange and cumbersome. If a child is above a level 3 in KS1 she takes a KS2 test which asks questions on topics that she has never been taught in school. SATS don't test how fast a child picks up things in a particular subject or how keen they are (or aren't) on it. And, most of all, if SATS didn't exist teachers would be teaching instead of spending a term on practise papers. Ridiculous! My first kid has done his first SATs and done well, but I've decided that I don't care what level my children get in any SATs ...or whether they take them at all. SATS don't do the kids any good.

neither of mine knew they were doing it

as far as I remember DadAtLarge, think they can do a special Gifted and Talented paper after a KS1 level 3 paper rather than a KS2 paper. And from memory, level 3 at year 2 isn't the same as a KS2 level 3 which appears slightly different (but whadda I know, am only a parent and our school places no emphasis on SATS till yr6!).

I don't believe there is such a thing as a G&T paper. I'm sure a teacher would correct me if I'm wrong but there's only one level 3. And you can get it by doing a KS1 test. Or a KS2 test. Or by not doing a test at all and taking the week off sick. Very slick.

Teacher here to agree - you are right on all counts, DadAtLarge - except that in the case of absence in would depend on the teacher assessment (or in the case of KS1, mostly teacher assessment - the test should play a minor role in determining this).