Is my son likely to get suspended tomorrow?

[MumHadEnough]

I am at my wits end! DS 6.5 is currently under assessment for adhd. He's extremely hard work but the school deal with him really well.

However, today, he punched a little girl in the back on the way out of school. The headteacher saw him and shouted him back. He ran away and out the school gates, with the childminder hot on his tail. The Headteacher continued to shout him back and he turned round and stuck his two fingers up at her. OMG I could murder him right now!

Consequently, I've to go into the school at 9am tomorrow morning. I have a really bad feeling she's going to suspend him, which wouldn't punish him at all, he'll see it as a couple of days off school, it'll be ME that's getting punished.

He's in his room at the moment, grounded and his trip to the local carnival removed. He just doesn't understand the severity of what he's done. He just doesn't "get" it, iykwim. I would never have done that kind of thing, would have been too scared of how much trouble I'd be in off the HT. .

Don't quite know what else to do with him!

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for checking up on me. Quick post before I leave to head home.

He didn't get suspended, thank God. She said she had considered it but it would have been a knee jerk reaction from her, so she gave herself till this morning to calm down and make a decision.

She has decided to cancel his school trip to the local farm tomorrow and keep him in school instead. But this wasn't an instant decision (which I would have preferred) she gave him today to show he can behave himself and she would let him go. She then told him at 2.30pm today that he wouldn't be going because he couldn't behave all day today either, he nipped someone in class apparently.

Bit crap if you ask me, because as far as I'm concerned in his wee mind, he'll have got away with his rude gesture and punching the wee girl and only have lost his trip because he nipped someone today. I think this might backfire on her.

As for the rude gesture, yes he does know what it means. He's EXTREMELY clever, misses nothing and has a few friends who are older, plus he picks things up in school. He also knows its VERY rude and that he shouldn't be doing it.

Additionally a parent complained about him this morning, which I'm a bit pissed off about to be honest. Apparently this parent complained that ds was "trying to kiss her daughter" and asked her to do a sexy dance.

I stopped her in her tracks and asked if this girl was xxxx, to which she looked at me shocked because I knew. I then explained that ds has complained to me at least once a week since he started school that this little girl in particular chases him and tries to kiss him constantly. I had just always laughed it off because thats what little boys and girls do. (kiss cuddle and torture anyone?). I thought it was PATHETIC that the mother had complained, I mean after all I could have complained every week since he started.

She then went on to say she didn't quite believe that as ds had never mentioned it. SO I then asked her to explain how I could possibly have known the little girls name who had made the complaint. She was more concerned about the "sexy dance" phrase. I reminded her that this little girl is a dancing champion and has been teaching my ds to dance apparently, so I think I know where the phrase came from.

Seems such a stupid thing to be angry about, but to be honest I'm raging, because to me it just seems that my son now has a reputation and that other parents probably know about it and are picking up on it. BUT punishments are due when they are due and there is NO WAY they're pinning this on him.

Right, rant over. The school have received their connors scale ratings forms today and will be returning them tomorrow. So we'll hopefully have an appointment soon.

He doesn't have a "statement" or anything yet, I think its called "record of needs" or something in Scotland. He is currently on a stage 3 early intervention plan, which the HT still feels is sufficient for him.

I'm sure she doesn't think he has adhd/odd/pdd at all, I'm sure she just thinks he's "hard work" and will grow out of it. I wish I could agree with her!

Hi don?t want to go into reams of advice as you have had some very sensible suggestion and am sure everyone you know has helpful ??hints?? for you

My DS1 sound exactly like your DS - we have been through many years of, to be honest hell with school and doctors etc - he is Now 10 diagnosed with Adhd 1st - Aspergers later on (ADHD hyper ness and lack of impulse control hid many other problems) and doing really well

One of the main thing that kept us sane was to separate behaviour at school and behaviour at school - and in particular the consequences and punishments - we found that our family life was being ruined by constantly punishing DS1aAt home for what had happened in School - plus we felt that we were more and more ??responsible? for his behaviour in school - The reaction from school was almost, well how are you going to punish him for each incident

In the end I said enough - How are you going to manage his behaviour and what are you going to do about it and also explained I would not be ??punishing?? DS1 at home for thing he did in school as it was taking away their power if Ds only say me as the one with any authority.

A whole day to behave is too much for a little adder boy - suggest they divided the day in to sections hours of classes for whatever works for them and have a reward chart that he has to get so many ticks on per day to have a little treat - sticker or whatever - it better to reward good behaviour in little achievable chunks that shows your DS that he can do it than just punish the bad - If punishment in school is needed they need to find what pushes his buttons in school i.e. what does he like? And use that as both a reward and a consequence

Also I explained quite clearly that ADDH is a disability and that a lot of the behaviour needs to be controlled by strategies as it is not just going to ??go? away and that DS would not just grow out of it without a lot of reinforcement and support.

My son really didn?t give a fig for what you did to him till he was about 9 and things started to click in to place

A lot of new research re ADDH and Asd suggest that adders brains are about 2 years behind in a lot of aspects, so in a away your Ds is 4 on the impulse and control scale and school need to use strategies that reflect that

Well I did ramble on but hope you find something useful

I'm intrigued that you give us asterisks to represent the word you used of this little girl to her mother. Was that an appropriate word to use of a child? Are you by any chance Harridan Mum - the angry one whom all the other Mums avoid. Is your boy picking up on your anger and aggression by any chance? Just asking...

If your lad is finding it difficult to understand what hurting another person means you may have to help him with a smack on the bum - the time honoured method - explaining that if he does not stop hurting other children right now he will turn into a bully and will have no mates! I don't as a rule favour hitting kids, but maybe he has not developed empathy yet and therefore genuinely does not know what it feels like to be on the receiving end. I was a biter (apparently, so says my mother) until someone bit me back one day. I was a baby, which must be my excuse!If you can't nip this in the bud one of two things will happen at some point: another kid will hit him back (who will you blame?; and/or he will hurt someone so much that the school wil exclude him - and it won't just be for one day. (This happened in my school).Is there a dad/grandad/ uncle/ brother or similar with a big scary voice who can get hold and scare the bejesus out of him before it is too late? At the moment I'm guessing he thinks he only has to deal with a bunch of yattering helpless wimmin who can't do anything.

They say you can't change another person, only yourself. So what could you change? I remember a TV prog ages ago about a child who was a complete Nightmare. Parents on the verge of breaking up over her etc etc. They consulted a chap who had one very simple method. You get bags of penny coins from the bank and each day you put out 30p for the child. Any bad behaviour (after one warning) and a penny is removed. No hassle, no argument, no yelling or whatever the usual method is. At the end of the day, any remaining pennies are the child's to keep. You could get the teacher to tell you if there was any aggro at school - if so remove a penny.

The other thing was - every night before she went to bed the parents had to open their arms, put a smile on their faces, and tell the child they loved her.It didn't matter whether they felt this or not. they had to pretend. Surprise surprise the child responded really well to this two pronged approach. However... the pitfall is that after a while the parents got careless; couldn't be bothered to get the pennies etc etc, assumed all was well, and bit by bit things slid back to where they had been. Answer? Start again and stick to it. They did, and the relationship was transformed.

give it a try and good luck.......

Bet you?re a joy of a teacher to a parent of any SN children in your class

Read any up-to-date (science based not opinionated ''self help'' eating nutmeg for 3 years will cure it ) book on adhd and it will tell you - It is a neurological condition - bad parenting does not make adhd but it can and does make good parents look bad

catrion - I suspect the XXXXXs were a substitute for the little girl's name, not a description of the little girl.

The OP goes on to say "SO I then asked her to explain how I could possibly have known the little girls name who had made the complaint.", so she obviously only knew the little girl's name because of her DS's reports.

A bit harsh tbh - nothing the OP has written suggests she is a 'Harridan Mum', simply a mum struggling with the needs of her son.

MHE your posts bring back some bad memories. My DS was like yours at 6. I finally got a dx of ADHD the summer between Y2 and Y3.

There is light at the end of the tunnel, although it doesn't seem like it now. Mine is now 19 and just finishing his first year at uni. Of all my children he is the most empathetic and the one who "gets" me.

The plus side of ADHD is the teen who doesn't have to run with the herd and is happy to be seen with his mum You just have to get through the hard bit.

Catrion, I was probably about to "go off on one" about your message but then realised you are genuinely trying to give some advice, however, misguided it may be. The xxx's were to replace the little girl's name, nothing other than that. Lmao at Harridan mum, no I'm quite the opposite. I'm the mum who tries to smile all the time and most people probably think I have a near perfect life.

Don't you think i know that my son is going to end up with no friends? Do you not think i've cried myself to sleep and beaten myself up over many many thoughts like that. Not going to comment any further, as the "who will you blame then" comments etc are just a lot of crap! Do you actually know any children with adhd or are you another of the people who think they are "just pains in the arses who need a good slap to sort them out?".

Thank you Lou, spot on!

Welshmum, thank you so much, your advice is wonderful and really appreciated. We did start out the year with the "school deal with school behaviour, we deal with home behaviour" but somehow the two have crossed over again. I'm going to make sure we separate that out and have clear borders again. I know we definitely need to be consistent in this too. The school also had the separated behaviour/punishment thing too but they seem to be crossing the line as well. Definitely need to sort this.

Spot on with the two years behind thing. Wow thats interesting and exactly what he is like!

Lol Elvislives, he can be rather camp at times so I do expect him to help with handbag shopping when he's older. rofl

Thank you for sharing your story and I'm so glad that everything has turned out well for your ds. Its nice to hear positive stories.

OMG Catrion is a TEACHER!

Catrion - I would like to remind you of some things that you may have forgotten seeing as you support quite 'old' methods.

A child of 6.5 ,any child will find actions and consequences very difficult to understand so a child with SN will find this doubly difficult.

A child with SEN will find it harder to respect other peoples personal space yet be fiercely protective of his own.

I and the op havent disputed the fact he used a 2 finger gesture to the HT,yes that was borne out of devilment,but a good teacher would explain how that came to be a swear sign and explain that isnt a gesture that is used,the HT and the OP dealt with this in a fantastic way.

The OP admits her ds can be hard work she was asking for our support in what might happen not for excuses.

I am [shocked] that you reccomend a smacked bottom.

The programme you refer to, wasnt entirely the childs behaviour the mother herself had lots of issues indeed as did the father.
The OP has no issue in loving her child nor was she asking for advice on handling his behaviour.

I'm actually quite shocked that in all the OP has posted her concern has been for the problems she will have with her son if he is suspended and the effect on the HT of the rudeness. There has been not a single word of regret for the harm done to the other children who were hit and nipped.

Tatt,

Stop trying to cause trouble. Of course I am concerned about the other children, and for all you know I may have spoken to their parents. But that wasn't what this thread was about, so hence I didn't mention it.

I could start another thread though of its own if you like? "how do I approach these parents and tell them I'm sorry that my child nipped theirs", but I'm perfectly capable of doing that myself, so didn't.

Now don't let the door bang your arse on the way out.

I think the OP is all too aware of her sons need for 'help' in school and she has been open and realistic about his challenging behaviour. I think the HT acted correctly in not excluding him, but should not have mentioned the little girls story in such an accusing manner - the reality is her son has been labelled and his behaviour will be put under a microscope. My son is 6yo and dx ADHD. He cannot see the wood for the trees at school these days as all the staff watch him like a hawk. He is not aggressive, but mischievous. He doesn't hurt anyone, but likes to 'borrow' stuff from the classroom , he doesn't swear or cuss, but likes to climb the trees and anything else he's not supposed to be on top of. Over the last week, he has missed playtimes, privilege time and had a sad face every day. Last night he cried and told me "I'm stupid because my brain is stupid". It breaks my heart. I want to pick him up and run a million miles from everyone, but I know reality is, he needs to conform and 'fit in' to be educated and have friends. He is popular as he's the class clown ... he'll do anything to get a laugh.

I guess what I am saying in my own experience is .... Children 'wired' in this way need to be given a certain amount of slack. I don't mean not being punished for really bad behaviour, but to be allowed to run and spin and shout and BE. My son is becoming more stressed in school because of their microscopic zero tolerance approach to him. He will become a caged animal and that would be disastrous for him. The alternative is to home educate and deprive him of the social interaction he desperately needs and craves. Sorry, that was a bit of a hijack, but had to get it out.

Mumhadenough out of interest, is he being assessed via school/GP or private paed?

Hi Icandothat, thank you for your support. Everything you said that describes your son, is every single thing my son is too including the "borrowing from the classroom" which I have to say made me giggle a bit (better watch what I'm saying before someone jumps on me for that too!).

DS is also very popular, I think because he's a handsome wee boy, very clever and is also the class clown unfortunately. However, other boys and girls love this despite the fact us parents might not.

We have a bit of a zero tolerance approach at home, which definitely isn't working. DH and I were discussing last night that we do need to change our approach totally as he gets away with NOTHING. It's now got to the stage where we don't believe anything he says because he lies so much and if another child tells a tale on him we automatically believe the other child. That's totally wrong because I'm sure there MUST be other times when its not ALL his fault?!?!? So our own parenting techniques are under scrutiny at the moment too.

To answer your question about the assessment, he was referred about age 3 to the local child development centre by our health visitor. Something went wrong, referral went missing and then we moved house and he wasn't seen until he was about 4.5 when he was seen by a psychologist and eventually diagnosed with ODD/PDD. We moved house again (all within the same Local Authority, just different child development centre) and had to wait again for an appointment for about six months.

Eventually starting seeing another psych, went through plenty of "behavioural management courses" etc (I'm sure those of you who've been there know what I'm talking about). Psych eventually decided that yes there was probably a need to narrow down the diagnosis, as was most likely an underlying adhd or aspergers (or both) needing diagnosed too.

That referral to CAMHS was made 18 months ago. Never heard anything at all for ages, despite kicking up a stink and really really struggling at times. I eventually called them in an emergency last November when he was talking about wanting to die, wishing he'd never been born, hearing bad voices in his head, bla bla bla. They saw us as a kind of "emergency triage appointment", outcome from that meeting was that he was undergoing a huge change, his self esteem was very very low as he was starting to realise he wasn't the same as everyone else and perhaps that he was "extremely naughty". The voices in his head we also worked out to be his conscience (which I was quite glad to discover he had! lol).

We were told the Connors scale ratings forms will be sent to you and school asap and we'll see you asap in "the New year". So this where we are, I sent my forms back last year and hopefully the school will send theirs back today and we'll have an appointment very very soon. Fingers crossed. Its been a long hard slog!

Sorry sent my forms back last WEEK!

Good luck with your next appointment, I hope it comes soon - the waiting is agonising. The way I have dealt with our son (he is not medicated), is with a really strict diet - absolutely no preservatives, artificial colours or flavours. He is overdosed on Omega 3,6 & 9 and we use a particular behaviour management technique called 1-2-3- Magic - it doesn't work for everyone, but it's been great for us (he is not very defiant, more 'testing'). Our bigger problem is teaching him social techniques - he is a social animal and loves to be surrounded by his peers, but can be in peoples faces. He is learning more and more about personal space issues. We also approached a homeopath at Great Ormand St Hospital, but we haven't felt the need to get any 'prescription' from her as yet.

I also have a well behaved, bright 12yo who recently passed his 11+ - talk about one end of the scale to another

MumHadenough - re zero tolerance - you are SO right, it will mean constant punishment and a cycle of depression and ?? I might as well be bad cause, I get punished all the time whatever I do ?? as well - also we ended up ?escalating? the punishment all the time to try and make it work if you see what I mean but it just ended up making us all unhappy

• Try just picking either the worst or most ''irritating'' behaviours and work on them - sticker charts really work and are s visual reminder for you Ds of what is required.- we use timers a lot ?10 mins? bedroom tidying before ½ telly etc Lots of small targets and small rewards work best - and they donnt have to be material - an extra story - extra time with you etc all work well (my DS cost me a small fortune at one point in trading cards - I soon learnt to split a pack lol)

Again new research shows that Adders need to ''jiggle and fiddle' to concentrate - I think it sort of works like a filter for them and helps cut out the overload of information their brain struggles to process - It?s worth subscribing to a news link - I print school out stuff to help keep them up to date and informed J

Welshwoman you have reminded me to add that we also 'backed' off at home. We would only punish if he really misbehaved or was very rude. We praise all the time because he can be brilliant. I let him fidget and jump around the furniture because I know that helps him. I let him run around and have learnt to ignore the sound affects when he's playing. I do not punish his hyper activity. I am witnessing a downward spiral with his self-esteem which is very worrying for us. Remember the good/positive things about your son and exaggerate them like hell !! You are your child's advocate and you need to be his ally. I know it can be sooooo hard sometimes. I look at my ds as my full time job. I also print information out about ADD/ADHD for my ds's teachers. They, including the SENCO know very little about it It mentions about being firm but fair at school and behaviour strategies you can put in place, but I guess they've glossed over that bit.

Thank you so much to both of you, you have given me some great tips and advice.

I think the main thing I need to work on is myself and try to stop worrying what other people think and how is behaviour is looked upon by others. I have been trying really hard to think "if this was at home would I react so much to it or would I have ignored it".

I suppose because we don't have a firm diagnosis (even though I KNOW he's adhd) I still try to make him be "normal". I know I now need to try and treat him as if he has been diagnosed and do cut him that bit of slack and deal with it appropriately.

Going to have a long long talk with dh tonight and completely change our ways of dealing with ds. Poor wee fella, he really does have it hard and is probably getting it in the neck from all angles. . I should bloody know better since I was him 26 years ago .

Even if the OP's son didn't have special needs he's ONLY SIX!! Some of the postings here are so sanctimonious. I would just say: "there but for the grace"..etc etc

It sounds like you are doing your best - I second what one of the posts said about ADHD making it look as if parents are clueless. My DS has ADHD -hyperactive impulsive and "normal" rewards and sanctions DO NOT WORK [catrion]because the child has to have time to think. The whole point about ADHD is that the child does not think - they act. ADHD children typically pay equal attention to everything and act without thinking - this makes them great fighter pilots and can help with sport, but it makes life difficult for them. I think you [OP] are absolutely right to back off a bit with discipline - i went through a stage of punishing everything in the misguided hope of improving his behaviour. he just became unhappy and came close to giving up trying to be good because he just couldn't.
We were told that the emotional age of an ADHD children is often 25%-33% behind the actual age and this makes sense. The teachers couldn't see this and always thought he should be mature because he is academically very able (and of course some teachers thought it was all down to poor parenting/junk food/middle class excuses).
DS is now 13 - he is learning to control his ADHD but it has been hard work - think how you feel trying to stop a sneeze - that is how ds feels smothering his natural instincts. He is also learning how to remove himself from situations when he begins to feel twitchy to avoid melt downs.
We have praised his efforts with behaviour and achievements - breaking the day down into segments sounds fab.
to posters who have complained about the children being hit by adhd sufferers - yes this is sad - but i don't know of any parent who sends their adhd child into school and wants them to hit, so yes we feel awful- just as we feel awful when some children deliberately wind up our dcs because it's fun when they explode (and of course the adhd child does not have the ability to hide the explosion or wait until noone is looking because if they did they would not have adhd) and we also feel awful when we hear groups of parents moaning about how our dc is disrupting the class and should be excluded (sometimes our children are blamed when they are not even at school on the day of the occurrence because everything is their fault). Last time a child started punching ds not realising that a teacher was standing just around the corner and could see everything - even then I heard a mother say that the whole thing must have been ds's fault (NB the teacher said ds in no way to blame!).
on the plus side - i have gained more tolerance and my ds is a wonderful, loving thoughtful boy who has great empathy and who deplores injustice. He drives me mad sometimes and I have cried for him more times than i can remember but I would not exchange for anything. Hugs and positive support to the OP.

Mumhadenough You've got some very wise words here from Elvis, Worried & Welsh and these are all mums that have been 'there'. One thing I also noticed made a huge difference to my ds was starting him at football club. I told the coach straight up that he had ADHD and he has been brilliant. He doesn't give my ds time to think, which can be dangerous and really praises him throughout the session. My ds is not the most co-ordinated of kids and he dances around and over the ball rather than kick it in the right direction, but he's getting there. Sport is a great way to get rid of energy and make them feel good about themselves. Michael Phelps the Gold Olympian swimmer is ADHD, so there's hope for our lo's

I would forget about the 2 fingered salute (this was done in retaliation to the teacher shouting) and focus on WHY the trouble started ie why he hit the girl, why he nipped the child , how was he feling when he did that.Cross with the child ,cross with himself , bored, frustrated - you need to get inside his head Yes he needs to be punished and ideally it should be done immediately by the childminder ,but I know you sent him to his room.
I don't think a punishment a day hence is right.he could easily accumulate a backlog of punishments and come to the conclusion that being punished is just the way life is.
Much better to start the day with a clean slate.

lol re the sport - mine do swimming /kung fu and lots of long walks - It does take the ''edge'' off and also helps sleep issues which lots of adders/aspies have