Annoyed with ds school - reception class with 35 pupils in!!

[Pitchounette]

Message withdrawn

I am very confused. I thought that if a KS1 class has more than 30 children, then the school must employ 2 FT qualified teachers, in addition to TA's etc. Are you in the UK, or is your school private?

I would ask the head and the governors what the plan is now that numbers are so high. It may be they can split the class back into two years again.

I wouldn't be happy either,thought there was a limit of 30 per teacher as well.

Poor teacher !

i spose they can get away with it as it is two classes.
each indivual class would be what roughly 17.5 children and perhaps that is not feasible, so small.
how many teachers

Would definately ask the governers.
I think it is unacceptable with two age groups.

an extra child joined ds' reception class last yr making it 31 and there was an uproar.
He was moved to smaller class when another child left.

Message withdrawn

i spose if this is all the extra people's nearest school and they appealed, perhaps the head can overrule?
that is what my dc's head teacher told me.

Found this from our LEA - class sizes can be bigger in certain exceptions:

The class size legislation makes sensible allowance for the entry of an additional child in certain circumstances where not to admit the child would be prejudicial to his or her interests. These children are known as "excepted pupils". These circumstances include:
where a child moves into the area outside the normal admission round and there is no other school which would provide suitable education within a reasonable distance of his or her home;
where a child receives a statement of special educational needs naming the school or a pupil with a statement naming that school moves into the area, in each case outside the normal admission round;
where a pupil is initially refused admission to a school but is subsequently offered a place there for one of two reasons: the person making the original decision recognises that an error was made in implementing the school's admission arrangements; or an admissions appeal panel upholds an appeal;
in addition, to preserve the important benefits for children with special educational needs which may be derived from attending mainstream classes, a child normally educated in a special educational needs unit attached to a mainstream school or in a special school will be treated as an excepted pupil for any time when he or she is in an infant class in the mainstream school.
In the first three of these cases, the class may only be above 30 for the remainder of that school year.

So it may be 'legal' if any of that applies. Not a good set up though and they are not allowed for it to continue into next year, so should only be for this term in any case.

Message withdrawn

Message withdrawn

as Zoec say ther are some legitamte reasons KS1 classes can go over 30. It's usually that a child has been admitted after September. If the school's intake wasn't full for reception then the school would have to take the newcomers. They would not be able to get away with it next year though.

Are they taught in the same classroom? It's unclear from your post. If they're not then that's a completely differnt kettle of fish!

budgets would have been set on the numbers in the school in Jan (can't remember the date but there is a census day) - if children have joined since then you get no extra money. So it sounds like it is only the last entrant who wouldn't have been included.

If they can't budget for 2 teachers then they must be having big problems elsewhere.

In my school teaching provision is the priority with the budget and everything else is made to fit around that.

Definitely talk to head/governors and ask them to explain their budgeting.

Even if they can't budget for another teacher they should be able to budget for another TA, maybe a higher level one. One teacher and 2 TAs might work very well.

My DDs school has classes with mixed years, but the total class size is not supposed to go over 30. They try and aim for 15 children in each year, but sometimes one year goes over, so they have to watch out for the year above and below that they will mix with over the years.

I feel very sorry for the teacher. I teach Reception/Year 1 too and its very difficult to meet the needs of both year groups. The Reception children are meant to be learning through play, following the EYFS and the Y1s following the National Curriculum. I only have 20 on my class, cant imagine having 35 !

In the short term the head could at least put another TA in the class to help with groups, but I would hope this situation wont continue next year. Its certainly worth you going in to have a word,the children cant be getting much individual attention. Good luck

Message withdrawn

Do you know what the admission limit is for the school?

If the children have moved into the area and the admission limit hasn't been met they can increase the class size beyond 30 for the remainder of the school year I'm afraid

As ZoeC pointed out it would fall under the exceptions rule

"where a child moves into the area outside the normal admission round and there is no other school which would provide suitable education within a reasonable distance of his or her home;"

even if there are other schools nearby.

The school would need to have an admission limit of 15 (or below) so that in a combined class there would be 30 children... if the limit is 20 in theory you could end up with 40 in the class if children moved into the area.

Ask the school whether the children are all on the same register or not?

I have known schools to have two separate registers - one is nominally allocated to the non-teaching Deputy Head.

The two classes are then combined on a day to day basis and taught by one teacher and two teaching assistants.

This is a sneaky way of sticking to the rules (sort of, by maintaining two registers), but saving money, by only having 1 teacher.

The trouble is that schools need 28 (I think) pupils in a class in order for the class to "break even", financially.

Schools which have an intake number of either less than 30, or between 30 and 60 have a real problem when it comes to balancing the books as they generally run each class at a loss (unless they mix classes to make a total of 30 children in each class).

Message withdrawn

Many schools manage by saving money in other areas, but it can be a constant balancing act.

From what I remember, under the EYFS which became statutory in September 08, Reception aged children must be taught by a teacher all the time. I think this also applies to the PPA (planning, preparation and assessment) time which teachers are entitled to have.

I'll have a quick google and see what I can find.

Ask the headteacher who the teacher is on the second register!

I can't find anything at the moment, but I'll check at school tomorrow.

That's interesting Littlefish. Our Rec/Yr1 class has about 20 children in it and is taught 4 days a week by a teacher and the fifth day is covered by a higher level TA.

Budget is a big problem for small schools, but we prioritise staff. Only 72 in our school
R/1 - 20
2/3 - 25
4/5 - 16
6 - 11
We struggle to keep 4 classes and the TAs but well qualified staff are more important than Pritt sticks and pencils. Our PTA help out with classroom enrichment (books, paper and colouring pencils!)

After a few years of finding the stock cupboard in it's "Old Mother Hubbard" state in February and March, each teacher now is given her allocation of paper/card/pencils etc and we squirrel it away.
And heaven help the child who throws a barely used piece of card in the bin!