parents of spirited children, school-related question (long – sorry!)

[kneedeepinthedirtylaundry]

My ds is a "spirited child" ? with intense and "obsessive" character traits. He's a happy, confident child. He currently goes to a nursery 3 days per week. He's 4 and coming up to primary age. His nursery becomes a school where he can go 3 days per week minimum, and the school day is short, compared with that of a state school (about an hour less per day). It's fee paying, tiny, very village-school like (amazing for London), close to our home and quite child-centred in its approach. We hope to keep him there for three days per week until, say, 6 or so, then up it to four days, then eventually full time.

Because both myself and DH are freelance, and the economic climate is currently what it is, I thought it would be sensible to apply for a school place in the local borough. He's been offered a school place at our fist choice and now we have to decide by Monday if he will take it or stick with the fee-paying lovely school. The state school (just been to visit) has a lovely atmosphere and a great Ofstead report.

But if he goes there, he will get the corners knocked off him, which is not necessarily a bad thing. However, he has always needed a lot of attention, from day one (could never put him down ? had to be a sling baby), and has had the attention he needed, pretty much. (I think that's why he's a happy, outgoing and confident child.) He's not "spoilt", can socialise and share well enough for his age, has empathy for others, etc. I'm wondering if putting him into the school system, which won't cater for his "spirited" needs, will be a good thing for him in the long run. For example, if he doesn't agree with a request you make of him, he will question it. I take the time to explain to him why I have made the request, and answer his question. I won't take no for an answer, but will negotiate with him if he tries and I think it is appropriate. There won't be much of that attitude with 30 children in the class, and I wonder if they will see it as "spoilt" rather than understand that this is his nature, and if their response to him will quash his spirit. While I think it's good for him to develop with an understanding that the world won't cater for his needs, I wonder if we should let him learn that one more slowly, rather than by throwing him in at the deep end, so to speak, at age four and a half. Or am I being too precious?

Does anyone have any experiences they can share to help us make our decision?

I totally agree with Imaginary friend and pretty candles.
As the mother of an 'busy and interesting child', he has thrived beautifully in a large, bustling junior school, that has the facilities and experience to deal with all sorts of individuals.

I think you are being a little PFB here, tbh. Whatever issues your child has are not unique to him, and a competent teacher will have dealt with it all before. You could make exactly the same argument as you've made on behalf of a child who was very shy and retiring, or one who was very academic, or one who struggled a bit.

Dd2 sounds similar to your ds in many ways, and tbh I'd rather she was in a fizzy class of 30 in a good mixed primary than in a class of 12 in a little prep school.

I think the really tiny classes some prep schools have don't give a balance of character and aptitudes, so a child who was dominant or quirky would be more likely to stand out, and not in a good way.

Dd2's teacher is very good at getting a balance between harnessing her subersiveness enthusiasm for the benefit of the class and also getting her to sit still and be quiet when called for. I certainly don't get the impression that her spirit is being crushed (as if!), but she is also learning that the world does not and cannot revolve only around her.

There are primary schools I wouldn't send any of my dc to, but if you're convinced you've found a good one, then I'd go for it tbh.

This isn't meant as a criticism - but I do think it's important to remember that ALL children are 'busy and individual". That's what makes them children! So unless your child is right at either extreme end of the "bell curve' of the child population I wouldn't worry. Schools are used to dealing with individuals.

All children are busy and interesting and individuals

'Don't all parents find their children 'vivid' / 'quirky' / 'busy and individual'?!'

I am sure that they do! Mine certainly are.
As a teacher I love the spirited, quirky DC- I think most teachers do. It always makes me smile when people seem to think that the system wants a lot of clones who sit still and don't question anything. The job would be totally boring.
I am sure he will be fine. He will have to realise that other DCs have needs and he isn't the centre of the universe, but I think that is a good thing.

"spirited" usually means "naughty" doesn't it?

It depends-if they are spirited and polite and considerate to other people I have no problem with it.

imaginaryfriend, prettycandles, ingles2, frogs, seeker and piscesmoon, thanks for your very reassuring posts. Prettycandles, I assume the school won't cater for his individual needs because of bad personal experience. Many of the teachers I experienced in my state school (London) were not competant, looking back at it as an adult. I was deeply unhappy and no one tried to help, or even took the related issues seriously when my parents tried to get me the help I needed. I ended up going to a private school in my teens, which really knackered my parents' pockets, but I did get a bit more individual attention and began to thrive and find out what I was good at, despite being the only working class kid on the middle class block. So going by my experience, state schools are not able to cater for individual needs (I was certainly a sensitive child, and instead of desensitising me, the numerous unpleasant experiences I had drove me into myself). It's VERY good to hear other mums have a very different attitude to schools as they are today.

jajas, kittywise, I use the term "spirited" not as a euphemism for spoilt or naughty, but as it is used to describe children that are much more intense than the average. They can be much trickier to handle on account of their tenacity and strong emotional reactions to experiences, but that's pretty much it in terms of how they differ from the average kid.

Frogs, what's PFB?

PFB = Precious First-Born.

Precious First Born

I'm glad others have come on here and said what I thought when I first read your post much earlier, but was too afraid to post!

Your child is just as special and quirky as all the other children he'll come across - that's what makes all children so fantastic. Good schools recognise this and support and encourage children in all that they do, and in turn children learn to accept others and understand that they are no more and no less special than their classmates.

Key to your concerns is to find a school that you're happy with. Dd's school is busy but it's a good school that we really plugged away at to get her into. It's not without problems though, no inner city school could be I don't think. But the kids really do thrive there because the staff are good, they make things fun and it's very stimulating. I think for an outgoing child it's easier to thrive than it is for a quiet or introverted child so I wouldn't worry about your ds.

I do know what you mean to an extent because dp and I did worry a lot about our dd who was so quiet and reserved. In nursery she was like she was 'walled in', one of the TA's said the other day to me that she couldn't believe how she'd changed from that child.

I also think that key is parental support. Reading your last post strikes some bells for me. I was very very shy and didn't do well at school because I seemed to have no power to assert myself in such a busy environment. My parents were very hands off - they both worked and had good and important careers. Rather than the school doing more, looking back I think they should have. I only started succeeding educationally when I went to college to do A levels, then a degree, an MA and a PhD! I'd never have believed it if someone had told me at secondary school that I'd begin to love education.

Dd's been at school with a boy who sounds very like your ds and the change in him from nursery to Y1 is huge. He now focuses his energy in a far more productive way and has always been a key member of dd's classes. He loves school.

My advice would be to choose your school very carefully. Visit on a normal working day. Take note on how the adults talk to the DCs, particularly the Head. Watch the DCs when they are not under the direct eye of the teacher-are they interacting well with each other and on task, working with interest. Ask them questions-how enthusiastic are they? Try and see a playtime. Above all, imagine your DC there-can you picture it?
Schools vary enormously -from the poor, through the average -to the fantastic.

Ah... kneedeep I totally understand you had an unhappy experience at school but you mustn't put your negative experiences and fears onto your son.
If you have found a state school you like, with a good atmosphere and a good ofsted the chances are your son will be extremely happy there. I sincerely recommend you try it.

Yep, he's my PFB (and an only child), but I think a second child would be my PSB! I don't think I'm being "precious" because he's my child ? more it's that I tend to take most things very seriously and like to weigh things up carefully.

paolosgirl, I think you've got the wrong end of the stick. I don't think my child is more special than anyone else. I sincerely believe that every child is unique and has something special to offer. I don't think my child thinks he's special or more important than any of his peers, either. My only issue is: will the teachers be able to deal with his more-than-average intensity in a way that doesn't crush his spirit?

imaginary friend, piscesmoon, ingles2, your posts are very helpful. Ingles2, I posted because I don't want to let my negative experience get in the way of making the right decision for DS. I wanted to know about experiences and attitudes different to my own that were positive, and in that way all your posts have been valuable to me.

Good to hear about your son's friend, imaginaryfriend. Piscesmoon, I went along today, and the children I saw all looked happy, both around the teachers and not. A couple of reception kids talked to me and they seemed very confident. The general atmosphere was great. I saw one child getting individual teaching and the teacher seemed very positive and encouraging.

goodnight jajas! I'm sure your intnse ds is unique in some way. And all kids are very good at being a pain in the wotnot!

We'll have to agree to differ there, kneedeep

'strong emotional reactions' really chimes with me, as does your description of a child who will ask why about a decision or instruction and expect to be treated seriously. My ds to a tee. Alongside that he, at reception age, found seperating from me VERY hard.

However he's now in year 2 of our local primary, 90 kids in each year, 30 in each class, and he's absolutely fine.

The teachers he's had have been open to his questions and willing to negotiate with him. They have shown an awareness of his character and an appreciation for his ability to think outside the box.

At no point have I worried that he is not being allowed to be himself.

I think so long as the child can listen as well as talk and question, that's all that most teachers would ask.

I hope you can come to a decision; I know totally what it's like wanting to pay privately but not wanting to play lotteries with your child - we felt that just 'squeaking' the fees was too risky so opted for state and have not regretted it. Hope this helps.

slowreadingprogress, thanks for your post. It does help. Glad your ds is thriving in school.

Hey Palosgirl, !!

'Yes, well I have seen many 'spirited/intense/individual, free spirited etc children who attend Steiner/ Montissori/ other alternative establishments And spirited is not the word I would have chosen to describe them I can tell you that!! Over indulged and truculent yes!

I'm not saying your dc is like this but it makes me very twitchy when I think about these spirited children, sorry.

kittywise - agree with you. I know the parent of a right little thug and she describes him with this far away look in her eyes as a loving and gentle boy - then she'll look sad when she says how she doesn't understand why other children don't want to play with him. I also know ex-montessori kids who are brought up with the child centred attitude that it is 'all about them' and I would describe them as 'obnoxious' and 'charmless'.

Some kids are just little horrors and the parents just can't see it. Can't blame the school system. It's horses for courses. We're at montessori because it is the best school around here by miles. I can't see that they way they teach (montessori in nursery and reception) is much different than a regular school - and I have to say that I did go in to see the school with the preconception that the kids would be little brats doing exactly what they wanted and ignoring the teachers completely. They work to a structured day and the school is very hot on discipline and manners. Yes there are some 'precious darlings' there but it's the parents and not the school's doing!

Fortunately we have a few education specialists in the family to make sure we don't go crazy.

'I think so long as the child can listen as well as talk and question, that's all that most teachers would ask. '

I think that slowreadingprogress has hit the nail on the head with that sentence.
I have been astounded on mumsnet to read about Steiner schools having discipline problems,I had assumed that parents looking for alternatives wanted a caring establishment that treated their DC as an individual. One DC being 'spirited' can't be allowed to stop the quiet, unassuming DC from being quirky and individual in their own way. I love a DC who questions things, but it is important that they listen to the answers and let others give their point of view.

Another suggestion, kneedeepindirtylaundry,would be, if you decide on a school, to volunteer to go in and help-it is one way of finding out if you are happy. It is also great for the teacher and children to have aditional adults in the room.

sorry-additional

FWIW, Kneedeep, my experience was almost the exact opposite to yours. I was miserable in my private school and wished I could have escaped to a completely different school. I felt like I was being pushed into conforming to a pattern that was not me, and that my individuality was not only not recognised. I should have done extremely well at that school - I'm not going to go into details why and what, but I did not do well at all, and I was so badly affected that I did not even have the confidence to believe that any other school would accept me.

Despite my experience, I was very worried about putting my children into the state system. If my private school had failed me, surely a 'free' school would be worse? But I am glad to say that my worries were completely unfounded. My dcs' schools are wonderful for them, my dcs are happy, achieving well, reasonably popular, and well looked-after. Each of them has their own particular special need - I don't capitalise because they are not SN, but they have their certain issues - which are being addressed very well.