Primary schools where the majority of children speak English as a second language - any experiences please?

[ThursdayNext]

DS has been allocated a primary school place for September at a school where the great majority of pupils are from mixed ethnic minorities, and at least half of the children in Reception are usually at an early stage of learning English.
We have looked around the school, and liked it. The OFSTED is good for the Infants, not very good for the Juniors but it is supposed to be improving.

I wondered if anyone had any experience of this type of school. I find it very hard to imagine how the teachers actually teach when so many children don't speak English, although the atmosphere seemed fine when we looked around so they seem to be maintaining order somehow.
Are friendships a potential issue? Do some ethnic groups tend to stick together so there are less possible friends in the class?

Depending in where you are, you will probably find that there is a lot of extra resource, espcially in the early years. There will be EAL tacher and maybe even a bi-lingual teacher.

Our school (60% ethnic minorties, the majoiry of which are Punjabi) is an example of best practice and does a lot of team teaching and the various teachers and teching assisitants work very closely together to develop an integrated teaching stragey. Sometimes thare are 4 adults in the classroom "teaching". They are only able to to do that through being really orgnaised and also with the "senior management" team also teaching every minute they are able to.

Your school may do it it different: eg teaching the EAL kids separately.

Ds seems to play football with all of the other boys and has been to one of the Asian girsl birthday parties but we are a wee bit disappointed that there hasn't been more "cross-ethnicity" friendships. Having said that: one of his "geoup" is black (with a white mother) and I don't think ds even notices - apart from the fact his firend "has the coolest hair in the school". Kids will choose their own friends.

I agree re: friendships - they find other children they like and have things in common with, like football or clubs they go to, etc.

Children who live in ethnically mixed environments don't see skin colour as a deciding factor, it's whether they "click" or not.

As others have said, they get a lot of extra resources. DS's school is very mixed and they have lots of TA's and support, so the classroom ratio, adults: child is amazing. As to friends, the only cliques I've noticed are amongst the parents waiting at the gates - the middle class white mothers are definitely amongst the worst.

prettybird, is EAL English as an Additional Language? Haven't heard the term before.

I think there was only 2 staff for 30 children in reception, although the atmosphere seemed very pleasant the school didn't obviously have loads of extra resources which is maybe a bit concerning. Perhaps it just wasn't obvious when I visited. Is it normal for a school to be given extra resources in these circumstances, or does it depend on the borough?

It's not skin colour which I think is a potential friendship issue, it's language, (and perhaps culture to some extent). smee, have you found that your DS has managed to be friends with children who didn't have much English when they started school?

I think it's unusual for reception classes not to have at least one teacher and a TA tbh. At DS's school they often seem to have 3 teachers across two classes, plus 2/3 TA's, plus other help too. It's often hard to keep up with it tbh, but it's a lovely atmosphere and the kids seem happy.

• friendships, etc DS doesn't notice differences really. He sometimes mentions things, such as the other day he said 'x doesn't speak very much'. I asked him why and he said because he doesn't speak English very well yet. But that was matter of fact, and not a problem and the boys play happily together. He tells me lots of lovely things, like for example that they all learn signing. That's because it's new to probably and gives them all a language they share. They've been learning a bit of French too, to give them all something they're equal on language wise. Personally I think a lot depends on whether the school embraces the different languages/ cultures and sees it as a positive. At DS's school it's right up there on their school prospectus as something they're very proud of and value. Go back and ask questions. I'm sure they won't mind.

When looking at primaries for my dc, the closest one (across the road) was 98% of another culture to our own. It was a well rated school, and obviously convenient, but we chose to send them to a school that was farther away, but more mixed. I felt that it would be too isolating in terms of language and social interactions for the children. Speaking to a friend whose child does go there, and is the only child of white english background that attends the school, I feel I made the right decision. She says that her son is relatively happy there, but although he is friends in class and in the playground, associating outside of school simply does not happen.

At the dd's current school, I would say the mix is more 70% another culture 30% our culture. Much socializing does go on, but unfortunately, on the whole, the cultures do not mix outside of school. I think it does depend on the culture too - I am referring to a heavily muslim culture, so I think the religious orientation does matter too.

smee, I think that is the arrangement, just one teacher and a TA in reception. Just doesn't seem like many staff to me if a large number of the children don't speak English. Your son's school sounds lovely, I would be very pleased if they manage to run things as well at the school DS will be going to.

jennifersofia, it is a very mixed school with no predominant ethnic or religious group, so a different situation to your local schools.

The term used (I think now in general) is 2English as an Additional Language" (EAL) rather than English as a Second Language: who is to say it is not the 3rd, 4th or 5th language?

I was responsible for writing a response to a consultation paper on a change in the way our Education Depratment (equivelnt of LEA) was going to orgnaise EAL teaching. We did a lot of reserach (helped by the fact that our school was wll known as an example of best practice) and I understand that the Education Direcotr was "furious" at the response as itwas so well argued! She was convinced it had to have come from the school. She couldn't understand that there were committed, educated parents in the school (some of whom had been management consultants in past lives ) who were perefectly capable of doign the research and writing a considered, reasonable resposne without the help of the teachers.

There can be difficulties where a majority of the children not only speak EAL, but additionally all speak the same other language. The playground language then becomes Other Language. This happened to my DS - only non-Urdu speaking boy in the class.

I think that if there is a mix of playground languages, it is less of a problem as English becomes the common ground.

I can see that one predominant non-English language may be more of a potential issue for friendships.
I wonder if having multiple different languages makes it more difficult for the teachers and for the children to learn though, since bi-lingual staff may be less practical?

prettybird, thanks for updating me on the terminology. I was suprised to be called a 'mono-speaker' at the school, more new terms for me to learn!

Califrau, that's interesting. In many parts of London there seem to be very white, middle-class schools where all the middle class parents clamour to get their children a place, and very ethnically mixed, socially deprived schools (such as the one where DS will be going) which the middle class parents often run a mile from. Do state schools in California have a more mixed intake?

Bi-lingual staff are rare: EAL (or ESL) teachers, who are trianed in teaching English without necessarily knowing the "other" language are much more common.

In fact, in Glasgow my school was a pioneer in employing a bi-lingual teacher in addition to the EAL teachers. It was worth it in our case as there was such a large proportion of Urdu speakers.

Our school is also very socially mixed - a very high proportion of socially deprived kids (as ina high number of free school meals) but then a number of very committed middle class parents (thnaks to both the placing request and the stragne dogs leg of the catchemnt which means that some "big houses" are included as well as the tenements and "social housing").

As the depute head teacher put it once at a conference she was at with my dh, the school ranges from those who "don't know where the next meal is coming from" to...... (pause for thought) "kids who are taken out of school to go skiing" (she said, looking at dh )

Honest, we get on extremely well with the school!!!!

The social mix is probably as much of a barrier as the language and relgious ones. But it is a very subtle one to counteract.

Our local school has 65% EAL with I think about 40 different languages spoken. There are difficulties in some ways but I think they are more cultural rather than language. There is a large number of strict muslims (about 50%) and there is not a lot of mixing. Some of the children are not alowed to attend music lessons. My DS has always had very few stable friendships and this is in part to do with middleclass flight. My dd has made strong friendships with two little girls who both speak three languages and there are no barriers there but there are fewer cultural differences. For mr I think the biggest barrier is religion or culture not language.

Thanks prettybird. I'm amused at 'kids who are taken out of school to go skiing'.

Califrau, I wish schools were as mixed here, the division of schools along class/money/nationality lines seems pretty depressing to me.

Drosophila, do you think the friendship issue has been a major problem for your ds? Would you choose a different type of school if you could, or are you reasonably happy with the school overall? Are you in London? I don't know if other bits of the UK have such a diverse range of nationalities. Sorry, too many questions, I'm so nosey. It's interesting to hear from people whose children actually attend very ethnically diverse schools.

I don't know how much extra help etc. the schools get, but when we moved to where we live now, my es started at the nearby, very mixed, primary school, and it was a brill school for him.
Now ms and ys are both in that school (es is secondary school now), and they are also doing well...they are picking up bits of other languages and culture and have made friends with a great variety of children, from all sorts of backgrounds...

I have no experience of this yet (my dd is a year behind your ds) but my area sounds similar to yours - in each of the 4 schools closest to us over half the pupils have English as an additional language. Of these, one is classed by Ofsted as outstanding (RC), one good (although has a bad reputation locally for reasons I haven't quite got to the bottom of yet), one satisfactory, and one is in special measures. I think there is a huge variation in how well different schools support children with EAL, regardless of the actual numbers. Do you know any parents of children already at the school that you could talk to?

Like you I am really depressed by the way schools seem to be divided, and have been really shocked to discover how few of the children that dd has met through toddler groups etc will be actually going on to the local community schools.

This is a really interesting thread.

It makes me a bit sad that some of you have found religion to be a barrier to socialising.

I have to wonder if it's a cultural thing. Dh and I are practicing Muslims, but because dd is Arab/Brit rather than South Asian, maybe she will have similar problems. Anyway, when the time comes, I would want her to socialise with her school friends, no matter what their background was.

One of our local schools is prdominantly Muslim, the parents coming from Kashmir. My friend is the deputy head there and she says one of the main problems for any children from a different background is peer friendships. Girls in particular are actively discouraged from socialising much at all but certainly not with non-muslims. After school activities are pretty much not attended by the girls. Also a lot of boys go straight to Madrassa so teams have been difficult to put together.
There have also been other issues with sport, uniform and drama.
Her view is that differeing cultural norms are the main problem in her school as language barriers can be overcome.
She is an inspirational woman but the job she is doing is extremely hard.

Accademically DS does well and is way ahead for his age in most things. He is however an unusual child and I do wonder if a more run of the mill school would recognise his strengths. He also has issues around writing which probably could be categorised as SEN and again I wonder if another school would not be adversly influenced by his weaknesses. One thing I have noticed is that our school seems to attract very dynamic committed teachers who have a lot to deal with but have an energy and a vision that is unusual (I think). There are things that could be better and there is no doubt that schools like these have greater challenges.

I decided to become involved and hopefully make a difference. I am a govenor and active in the PTA. I think that most kids with support at home will do well in most schools but perhaps more effort is needed at home and maybe not everyone feels they can bridge that gap.

Socially I think there are problems for my DS but less so for DD which could mean there are difference in the kids themselves. As I said he is unusual and I don't think kids 'get' him. There is a school nearby that is mainly white middleclass and has an outstanding ofsted report but I am not sure it would be any better for DS.

Prettybird, I would be interested in any infor you could direct me to on best practice or additional funding for kids with EAL. I want to make sure our school is gettign everything it can. Many thanks.

It sounds very similar to my dd's school but most of the children, despite not speaking English at home, have already had upwards of a year in nursery and now speak it quite well. I have lots of issues with the school but the mix of children isn't one of them - they are great and there don't seem to be any cliques among them along the lines of ethnicity.

My 3 DC attend a similiar school.

My DC do mix with children out of school, but nowhere near as much as at the more mixed middle class school down the road. By Year 1 the children who have been at the school since nursery all speak with the local accent. At DS1'S class assemblies it has amazed me how well the children have come along. The schools value added score is the highest in the city, which indicates that the teaching is outstanding, proven in the latest Ofsted report.

I get on well with other parents, and in no way feel excluded from any of the playground cliques you hear about on Mumsnet.

My DC now go to the local park and join in play with children from a diverse range of backgrounds.