AIBU to be a bit miffed that DS's (non-church) school does prayers at morning assembly.

[TheSweetLittleBunny]

Christian prayers. We are atheists. I chose a non-church school so why do they pray at assembly? I have no problem learning about religion, ALL religions my problem is that he is being taught Christian worship. I don't want to exercise my right to pull him out of assemblies, because that would mean that he misses all the other stuff that they do in assembly.

I think it is simply not right that a school by law, under the NC is required to hold collective religious worship every day. I think it would be not right, even if every child in the school happened to be a practising christian. Foine to hold a 'prayer club' for children wish to make prayer or worship part of their day, fine to teach the cntent of a rang of religions and alternative beliefs. (except that atheism / secular humanism is not taught..).

However, I am saved the driving motivation to write to my MP about it because as far as I can tell DS's school simply flouts the NC. They do great collective assemblies, but singing Bob Marley songs is as spiritual is it gets .

policywonk on Tue 06-Jan-09 20:10:54
" I want DS to have respect for his school and his teachers, but this issue makes it hard for me to support the school wholeheartedly. "

Tbh I wouldn't have a problem with telling my dcs that their teachers sometimes get things wrong. They don't believe I am infallible and they still respect me, so why wouldn't the same go for their teachers. There have been lots of issues where I have had to tell dd that her school is acting wrongly (in one case even illegally), but she has not grown up into a disrespectful person, more into someone who understands about human frailty.

As a Christian, I'd prefer daily prayers to be abolished as it smacks too much of compulsion.

I would never tell my dcs categorically that either Christians or atheists are wrong or lying or muddled or whatever, though. As far as I can see, this would interfere with their right to make their own minds up. I have always told them some people think this, other people think that, I believe one thing, their Dad believes something else/does not believe. As it so happens, they have chosen to believe something different to me. I would never disrespect their beliefs just because they are different from mine.

I think the law is about right. If most children in a school are Christian (non practising) then the act of collective worship is Christian and the athiests and children who don't want to participate don't join in. If it is a manly Muslim or school then the act of collective worship reflects that by getting an exemption. Many schools are multi cultural so they just pray to God, but no God in particular.

So the school reflects the majority, but makes provision for the minority.

I don't think the same attention should be paid to all religions because we are not encouraging children to choose any religion, but simply to have a vague understanding of spirituality and a cultural, non practising understanding of religion. Culturally, we live in the West, and the religion that has most influenced our country is Christianity. It is important for understanding politics, history, art, philosophy etc of the West, and we are Western! Secondary to that is the other Abrahamic religions (as they are a significant minority and their religions are intertwined with the development of our country), then the Eastern religions, and then the religions of tribal Amazonians etc.

It could be that the Amazonian tribe are right, and everyone else is wrong. Morally, the tribe could be right and everyone else could be wrong. The religion of the tribe could be the right one for your child.

But we cannot teach it in school, because we need children to understand most about the belief system that influenced their country, and then other major world beliefs, and then the minority beliefs. It would be very ignorant to have been educated in Britain and not the the nativity story; it is in the new testament and the koran and is known to at least half of the population of the world! (30% are Christian and 20% muslim)

As for people who think we do too much of other religions and not enough indepth Christianity at school. You can learn more at home! it's not like having to teach physics; anyone can read their child the parables. The Percy the Park keeper writer has done books of them which are very nice.

Just my opinion, but I have an extended family of Christians, Athiests and Muslims and I a think the vague worship done in schools is the best compromise. If people want more religion, they can teach it at home. But if we get rid of all religion, then we end up like the US, with fundamentalist (learned from the home) children who have no knowledge of other religions, because the school doesn't cover it.

That's exactly how I feel that they don't present it as another theory, they present it as the truth. DS is only 5 and believes in whatever the school says, and I too find myself in a postion of having to tell DS that the school might not be right which then could undermine his trust in other things that they might be teaching him. I just said to DH though, that it will be easier when he starts learning formally abotu science, etc. and that we should play up the rational, scientific explanations as a counterbalance

I meant mainly, not manly!

SLB, you sound like an excellent parent. Your child will be far more influenced by your home environment than the school, Teach the science and tell ds, that is what Christians believe, but we are not Christians.

MillyR I agree with most of what you are saying - my issue is the worship aspect. I am all for teaching the main religions or even just one or two and don't expect the education system to teach DS every single religious faith in the whole wide world. What I object to very strongly is the worship aspect of all of this. I feel that worship is for churches not for schools. He is in a non-church school and there to learn, not to pray.

I think you have put that very well Milly.

On a practical level if I went down there and put my point across about everything that I think they teach wrongly (although I know this is a huge thing - am not belittling it) then I would be down there all the time and so I just plug away at home with my firefighters and other anti-sexist, anti-materialist things at home...

Otherwise you're leaning towards home schooling arent you?

SLB - I actually think that praying (focussing) has some useful value beyond the worship as well though - it can be seen as meditation for example - at the very least it is about sitting still for a bit - which would be invaluable for my ds. Could you not ask your dc to focus on something important that they wanted to achieve or be better at etc?

Thanks MillyR (xposts).

Yes I have giantkatestacks. I have told him today that instead of praying to a god (althoguh at the moment he is fascinated by egyptology and thier gods) he could focus on things that make him feel happy or things that he wants and try and imagine them happening.

Presumabkly you went to a school where you had to pray and sing hymns every day? And yet you grew up to be an atheist?
I'm not religious- I just tell my children that "some people believe" in Jesus, and they accept hymns and prayers as part of the school day. If they want to become practising Christains (or follow any other religion) when they're older, that's up to them entirely.
Even though I'm not religious, I see a knowledge and understanding of Chritianity as part of our cultural heritage. I still remember countless hymns and carols off by heart. (In fact, that's one of my objections to the more modern-style nativity plays, the fact that the tradition of singing caraols seems to be being lost).

Anyway, if it bothers you that much, you can ask for your child to be excused.

At our non-church school if children don't want to pray they are asked to sit quietly so as not to disturb those who do.

ds is at an allegedlly non-denominational school. Actually seems to be pretty full on. He was telling me tonight all about how God made the world in seven days. Refused to believe in evolution at all until I mentioned his dinosaur book (which covers hundreds of bloody prehistoric species - hate that ruddy book but it came in useful tonight).

I think I've managed to explain that there are things that are literally true, like 'the bathroom door is white', and things that are stories that some people believe express a deeper truth... but I'm not sure he really understands, he's only five. Much easier for him to grasp 'we are Christians, Mummy, we worship God' which is what school seems to have told him.

Actually, I can live with them indoctrinating ds, I can alleviate that at home (am wishy-washy CofE/agnostic, dh is an atheist) BUT I do object to the fundraising for dubious evangelical 'charities' like Samaritan's Purse. However, I think I have persuaded the school that next year they should do boxes for another, reputable cause.

That's a good idea MrsWeasley. Sometimes I have been to Christian friends' houses or they have come to mine and they say grace at mealtimes. I just sit quietly and accept that this is what they want to do. i don'l leave the table or tell them not to do it. WHich is why I am hesitant to pull DS out of collective worship. He could just sit quietly contemplating something else while everyone else gets on with it. I think him physically leaving the room is not the option because it implies lack of acceptance of other people's preferences/beliefs.

I think it is a very interesting and important topic, and years ago I did read up on it, at religious tolerance.org and there was a site where moral philosophers discussed it (but can't remember where).

I don't embrace total relativism. I do say to my children, 'evolutionism is a fact and people who do not believe it are wrong.' it is my home environment, and that is our culture; if the school teaches Noah's ark (which they did), I am not going to worry about it (as long as not in a science class). Parents choose the culture of the kids (which they can reject as grown ups) and school introduces them to wider society, IMO.

Some comedian did a sketch about taking a girlfriend who had been brought up by nonbelievers to an art gallery: who's that baby being born in the shed? is it the same guy who gets tied to the pole in the other painting? Always makes me laugh.

Ha! MillyR. LOL!
But I agree, the school introduces our DC's to wider society. At 5 however I think it is too young to be introduced to religious practice, as they are too young to put understand it even in a rudementary socio-political-cultural context. So on one side you have the school saying "god/jesus is wonderful" and on the other you have me and DH disagreeing and saying "evolution, evolution, evolution" and arguing for a rational scientfic explanation. Poor DS is confused. I would have preferred the "some people believe" approach in schools personally.

Milly, I think you are conflating knowledge about religipns with actual worship.

I agree that a knowledge of christianity is crucial to understanding many aspects of cultur, but that is completely differnt tosaying it is necessary toimpose actual worship and praying on children in state schools.

There doesn't need to be ANY worship as part of the education process. IMO it is an anachronism that the law demands it.

As I said schools (non church in particular) are for learning and not for praying.

DH and I have decided on a compromise and will approach school tomorrow. We are Ok with him staying in the assembly for the "worship" part. But we don't want him to actually do any praying, just to sit quietly and think about his own stuff (the formation of supernovas, what is inside black holes, dinosaurs, and so on ) That way he can still experience the so called spiritual aspect but in a way that does not compromise his rights/family/personal beliefs or stunt his natural 5 yo curiosity.

cory - for me, the crux of the matter is that they are teaching something that has, frankly, no basis in fact. I just don't think that's the role of a school. It really is akin to teaching children to believe in the Tooth Fairy (sorry, I know that this will probably cause offence to some believers, but as an atheist that's my position).

I don't have a problem with teaching about religions or belief systems at all - they are essential to understanding the world around us (although the deliberate exclusion of atheism bugs me a lot).

But I have a BIG problem with teaching small children that one, fundamentally unprovable belief system is correct, while all the others are less important cultural artefacts.

But reading the thread I see a few others have already said this

PW, hopefully they are not teaching that Christianity is more right, they just teach more facts about Christianity that other religions.

Blu, Yes there should be a clear distinction between worship and RE. Many people may want their children to participate in RE but not worship, and some people may want neither.

May be a weak argument, but..

I am just prepared to give in the majority over prayer; I don't believe schools are ever really in the business of teaching facts and rationality, as mainstream society doesn't run on facts and rationality. Teach you children to be rational at home, and hope they get on to a science degree at University.

I suppose it is a matter of the school prayer's influence on your child (which you can remove at home) and the influence on other people's children (which you can't personally remove but influences future society), and do we have the right to insist on a rational world?

I would be really interested to hear the experiences of people who have brought up kids with no religion and been very rational, and how their kids respond.

We have cultural religion in the house, but no spiritual element. My daughter believes in all manner of stuff, God, ghosts she can see, witches, fairies and all sorts. My son has no time for any of it and has always maintained that Mary and Joseph would not have ended up in a stable if they had set off earlier.

fallenmadonna, yes, I agree that some people are both religious and scientific; i heard the original big bang theorist was a scientist and a Catholic priest.

Your son is right but it would leave the annual nativity play a bit short of a plot.

No, Milly, in DS's school at least they're teaching him that it's right - he's not coming home talking about Shiva or Buddha; he's talking about JC and (a definitely Christian) God, and getting very upset with me when I tell him I don't believe what his teachers believe. He starts every day off with a prayer - how's he supposed to distinguish between that and the rest of the curriculum?

I think schools are very much in the business of facts and rationality, particularly primary schools. DS1 spends most of his days doing sums, learning spellings, soaking up basic facts about circuits and biology and where Australia is. It's all very much fact-based... until they start talking about religion. Again, I don't think it's fair to expect a five-year-old to understand that 95 per cent of what he is taught at school is empirically proven, but 5 per cent is a cultural myth.

Policy - as much as it does upset me to have Jesus described as a cultural myth I do accept your position.

If you do think it's a myth though, please consider it a benign one. I can't say that 'organised religion' is a good thing, but JC set a good example. If more people actually tried to love, care for and help others (those whom society had forsaken), society would be a better place imo. I don't mean to offend any non-believers, and I feel a very poor ambassador. Just want to try to put across how I see it.