AIBU to be a bit miffed that DS's (non-church) school does prayers at morning assembly.

[TheSweetLittleBunny]

Christian prayers. We are atheists. I chose a non-church school so why do they pray at assembly? I have no problem learning about religion, ALL religions my problem is that he is being taught Christian worship. I don't want to exercise my right to pull him out of assemblies, because that would mean that he misses all the other stuff that they do in assembly.

It is more unfair on him to be practising one particular religion don't you think? As opposed to learning about religion in general, as a subject in addition to science, etc and letting him make up his own mind.

Well SLB, I am unable to supply you with a neutral argument as I am biased, being a Christian.

But although I respect you and your household's beliefs, I do feel there are far worse things he could be taught than to be a Christian (in the true sense of the word, not just the organised religion part). Part of which is to strive to love and respect everyone, regardless of their beliefs.

I am a Christian but my children decided very early on (probably by age of Sweetlittlebunny's ds) that they are not. They haven't changed over the years, though dd is now 12; they may or may not as they grow up. Not my decision. I was the only Christian in my non-believing household and again made my decision very early and on my own. My parents never made any attempt to hold onto the current belief system of the household and I am grateful to them for that; my beliefs have never caused any friction in the family.

Cory and mrsseanbean I believe wholeheartedly in the same things that you do - just not the organised religion and theistic aspects. I respect peoples need to have organised religion - and strive teach my son to do the same.

And anyway isn't it a bit hypocritcal for (non-church) schools to offer worship because they have to - and not because they want to.

SLB as another poster said that seems a fair balance. So going back to your original post, I wouldn't be too miffed.

Just accept and explain it's part of the way things are done here in schools. Explain that other people are free to practise their faiths as well. I am sure he will learn about other faiths in RE at a later date (very out of touch with curriculum but surely the case).

Not hypocritical SLB, the law by the sound of it. I agree though it would be fairer if more choice existed. Maybe write to your MP/ local councillor about it?

(Sighs) Nah - another good lesson in life is acceptance. On reflection, I agree that we have the balance right. I want him to participate in all aspects of school life and learn everything he can from the variety of experiences he will have at school. It's all about learning after all, no?

Agree with Donk about disestablishment - yes please.

I also had problems with DS1 (also 5) coming home last month with various garbled versions of the Christmas story. I accept that Christmas is in part a Christian festival (I say 'in part' because as SLB says it's largely an appropriation of ancient pagan traditions), and on that count I don't have any problem with him being told the story - just as he was taught a certain amount about Hinduism during Diwali. Fine. I do object to the fairly strong implication that the Christmas story is true, which is certainly is what my (non-faith) school seems to be teaching DS1.

Have done bugger all about it though I suspect I'm the only parent who gives a chuff.

policywonk - no you're not the only one. I dread Easter

just out of interest (no agenda - am not religious) - SLB and policywonk (one of my fave names btw) do you let them believe in Father Christmas and the Tooth Fairy etc?

Well because you asked so nicely...

I actively encourage belief in Father Christmas, yes. In fact I get ridiculously over-excited about it, to the extent that DS1 has already started looking at me like this whenever FC comes up.

I think I see the point you're driving at - but FC isn't at the centre of an entire belief system, or a massive international cultural force. By telling little kids that Christianity is the 'truth', you're attempting to induct them into something that would affect every corner of their lives. Plus it is in active conflict with some fundamental scientific principles.

For instance - when my mother died, DS1 asked me where she had gone (ie where her body/spirit were). I told him that her body had been cremated, and that her spirit simply didn't exist any longer - that when we die, the spirit becomes extinct. He was very confused, because as it turned out some well-meaning person at school had gone off on a big jag about angels and heaven. So as far as DS1 was concerned, either school was lying to him, or I was (he decided I was ). I was pretty pissed off about it.

Its the law innit

Just to add, as part of my job I go in to priamry schools to do specifically Christian assemblies, always at the invitation of the headteacher. As part of the content of what we say we talk about specifically Christian things (i.e. Jesus' birth at Christmas etc) but we handle prayers a bit differently. We always do a little disclaimer at the start which is "I am going to say a prayer now, and if you want to me make it your prayer, you can join in at the end by saying "Amen" which means "I agree". "

So that gives children the right not to agree, which is important. Also in our prayers in assembly we always pray to "God" and not to Jesus or any expression of the Holy Trinity (which is explicitly Christian). So a Muslim, Hindu or follower of any number of other religions could join in and not be offending their religion. We work in a fairly multicultural area so it's important to be inclusive. At times we have also used readings from holy texts other than the Bible (eg the Koran). Some Christians (and indeed followers of other religions) might find that a bit difficult but IMO honouring other religions does nothing to weaken your own - it opend up dialogue and respect.

And of course it means that non-religios families don't get railroaded into an act of worship that they don't agree with!

yes that is annoying - I have similar conversations with my 5 year old ds about my mum.

I am just turning over the idea of it not being such a cultural force in this country - my ds knows much more about divali than any christian festival. We allow this to happen because we dont believe in it and yet does this mean we will lose part of our culture? I havent come across a way for my ds to access Christianity in a cultural way - ie bible stories, parables, the gospels etc which I think are very much worthwhile without it being linked to belief.

Am not really focussed on what I am trying to say here - apologies.

Linking to the Father Christmas thing - my ds believes in magic and monsters and all sorts of things to a greater or lesser degree - no doubt he will lose them all one by one - I think it is pretty impossible to be 'indoctrinated' into any single religion with some prayers in a morning assembly - it requires regular commitment and a family background imo.

giant, it's interesting what you say about it not being so much a cultural force in the UK. I would have agreed with you until I moved to a Surrey backwater and DS1 started school; now, suddenly, he is involved in a daily act of Christian worship, plus Christian teaching that extends into the rest of the school day. And I'm surrounded by church-goers, which is a complete novelty for me. So I guess it depends on where you live? Our local church (which is closely involved in the school) seems pretty powerful to me.

Similarly, when you say your DS knows more about Diwali than Christianity - it's not the case here, but then we don't live in a multicultural area, so I suspect that the teaching of other faiths in DS1's school is a bit half-hearted.

DS had just started to have a rethink about FC now and says "I think it is something adults make up to make Christmas more fun for children" - but got into it again because of school. I think he knows it isn't true but gets caught up in the excitement of Christmas. I neither encourage nor discourage it for similar reasons to policywonk. Toothfairy - similar to FC really. But I have told DS that if he wants money he can just ask me - he doesn't have to lose teeth for it

Oh this drives me nuts as well. SLB you could consider joining the Secular Society or the British Humanist Association, both of whom want to get rid of the collective superstition in schools. I intend to tell my DS when it gets inflicted on him that lots of people have special imaginary friends that they like to talk to (along with the general cultural historical background) and that these imaginary friends and fairy stories are very important to other people, so be polite about them but don't worry about them. ANd when the others are talking to their imaginary friends, just sit quietly till they've finished. (If whatever school he goes to pulls the trick I have heard of ie telling the DC they have to close their eyes and fold their hands etc I will be having words).

Plus - something that is almost NEVER addressed in primary schools is atheism. And that does annoy me. If you're going to teach my son about every major faith group, have the intellectual courage to teach him about those of us who don't believe in anything, please.

I might also point out here that DS is quite into science/dinosaurs/space/evolution at his young (5) age. One of my worries was that this kind of religious teaching would stunt his natural curiosity about nature and science so instead of pondering about the natural order of things, he would simply conclude (as some people believe ) that everything was made by a supreme being.

yes policywonk - I suppose it does depend on where you live -and on the circles you mix in - am on the london borders and amazing numbers of my friends with preschool dcs have suddenly found religion [sigh].

my ds' school is one of those in which they have a christian ethos and yet 2/3rds of his class are muslim or hindu.

am not sure what to suggest though - can you turn it round and think what you would say if you had moved to india or wherever and there was a similar exposure happening - it would still be at school and all around you - would you see it as different cos it was exotic and new (and rather more fashionable) or would you just think that your cultural mores at home would be strong enough to counter it anyway - I think i would take that view.

Well, there are plenty of scientists who have religious belief, myself included. And I went to a Catholic school too. So I wouldn't worry about his scientific curiosity.

Agreed solidgold and policywonk. I have recnetly been looking at the BHA website actually because I have felt the need to have a formal "belief system" to teach my child about.
And I agree with policywonk atheism/humanism should be taught in schools as part of general teaching about belief systems otherwise the message you are sending is that everyone believes in a supreme being which does not conside agnosticism or atheism.
Part of what has disturbed me is the closing of the eyes and the prayer hands position that DS has adopted. As i have said I don't mind people having their beliefs but resent these being enforced on my child. Throughout this evening I have oscillated between thinking "yeah whatever it can;t do any harm" and wanting to pull him out of "collective worship" portion of assembly altogether. My main counterbalancing of this indoctrination to DS is that lots of people believe in different things because they need to make sense of the world in a particular way and I have said to him that during "prayer time" he could use the time to think of nice things that make him happy. But I will draw the line if he has to kneel or assume any form of prone position though.

giant - yes, I do think that the home environment has the stronger influence in the long run. My basic problem - and it's difficult to say this without causing some offence I suspect - is that they're teaching him something that I think is just untrue. They don't present Christian beliefs as just another possible theory; they present them as the thruth. And I think that's a rotten thing to do to a very small child. As in the example I gave below, parents in my position have no choice but to tell our children that the school is lying to them - or is, at best, muddled and misguided. I want DS to have respect for his school and his teachers, but this issue makes it hard for me to support the school wholeheartedly.

I can't believe how cross this is making me feel. It just feels so unfair and wrong.