Do you think state schools should do more to improve clarity of speech

[ReallyTired]

My son goes to a very rough state school where 30% of the kids are eligible for free school dinners. He is getting a good education, but developing a most atticous accent.

As the children are taught to read and write by synthetic phonics, you can see that the way they talk spills over into their writing. The spelling is perfect esturary. In someways it would be easier for them to learn to spell if they at least knew what standard English was even if they chose not to use it in their daily lives. Ie. They become quasi bilingual.

Would it help these kids if they had elecution lessons so that they would know how words are pronouced in standard English. Or would it be wrong to see regional accents as less good English.

Would it help the really bright kids when they are older and complete for uni places and job interview with the privately educated kids.

Motherese (i.e. gee-gee and choo-choo) is a recognised stage in a mother's communication with her baby. You don't see many 20 year olds still refering to them as gee-gees and choo-choos, so I wouldn't worry to much about that one

speaking clearly has nothing to do with accents (or variations if you want to be pedantic)

surely the emphasis should be on being able to express yourself clearly and concisely, whether you say 'path' or 'parth'?

I think we should have more lessons on oral literacy as well as written - sadly many children do not learn good communication skills from their families

oh yes motherese (thinks back to linguistic classes)

all cultures and languages do it
there are good reasons behind it
no need to be snobbish

here you go

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_talk

Where we live, a lot of the children say things like 'free' for 'three.' They also say things like 'they was..' or 'we done.' This bothers DH and me a lot as neither of us is from this part of the country and we don't speak like that. Not to sound snobby, but I want my children to be able to go other places and not sound ignorant. So, when my DC bring this sort of thing home, I simple say 'What?' or just say it correctly. They have picked up the correct ways over time. As far as the spelling goes, I tell my children to try to hear me saying it (I'm American and pronounce many more words as they are spelled than most people around here) and spell it that way.

I wanted to add that most of the teachers at my DC's primary speak reasonably good, clear English, but many of the TAs speak the local dialect with its incorrect grammar and pronunciation.

Message withdrawn

If you speak good English, but others around you are more colloquial, your DC's will pick up and use both languages according to their situation, I think. My kids do.

My DS has spent the first week of the holidays saying litttul instead of little...it drives me mad! I really hate Estuary English..it sounds so lazy. Hopefully he will have returned to RP by the end of the hols!

I think you'll find "free" instead of "three" is a case of not being able to pronounce "thr" well.

My DB can't for the life on him say anything that starts with "thr" without it coming out as "fr" frew, free, etc etc

We live in Essex (East London border) so I understad what the OP is saying. Ds 5 yo wrote in a card "wiv love" the other day. He has trouble pronouncing "th" but as everyone else drops "th" anyway he can't ever see his mistake. I do remind him but don't want to be a nag. Dd on the other hand (same school/parents ) speaks like the Queen so wtf happened?

lol cod.

cod

languages aren't 'good' or 'bad' but plenty of people are snobby. I'd like my kids to be able to dialect switch but I'm pretty sure they'll do just fine at learning by themselves. never hurts to point out standard/dialect differences at school though.

d'you know less than 15% of reception aged children(this is a distantly remembered fact, possibly inaccurate by now)speak 'standard' English. lucky them. reading and writing must be much easier when you don't also have to learn a new variation of the same language as well as how to read and write it.

forgot to address original point

it would make no difference to spelling at all. honestly - have you ever tried writing down anything using synthetic phonics - go on, try. speak like the queen then write it down.

Yah but rilly cod, you're such a, like, total weird-oh

People are so ridiculous and snobby about people talking to small children in an affectionate way. There is nothing wrong with gee-gees and horsey or 'whose a lovely ickle dickle tickle baby den?'. It does NOT hinder speech. As someone else said no adults say gee-gee and don't understand the word horse. It's ridiculous to worry about it.

Quite. And as salt would encourage it for many reasons too complicated to go into here.

Only 15% children speak standard english? Oh dear, I am so behind the times. Most of the four year olds I know do!

I don't think schools should teach a standard accent at all. Nothing to do with them. They should help children learn to articulate well and to make themselves understood to all sorts of people. And to use apostrophes correctly but that's one for pedant's corner ;).

There is absolutely no need to teach RP. Apart from anything else, it changes gradually over time. You just have to listen to someone whose language is fossilised by deafness, or habit (or recording) to realise that yesterday's RP is today's ridiculously posh/dated. My mother and MIL have both got to the set in ways fossilised stage with language and they sound rather overenunciated when saying a word with a middle "t" such as "notebook" or "nutmeg." In youthful RP that "t" has all but disappeared into a glottal.

I always thought "Estuary" was originally coined to describe how RP would eventually sound, given the heavy influence that London has over the Establishment.

And I still never say the words "drawing" or "monster" for fear of incurring the wrath of a passing pronunciation-correcting parent. It's not that helpful.

I do think that children should be taught to look people in the eye when they speak, and to slow down and speak clearly if people aren't understanding them, but that's it. The most infuriating thing is when a person won't speak up and that's partly down to a fear of being corrected.

The Literacy framework objective states "Speak clearly and audibly with confidence and control and show awareness of the listener" therefore schools do teach children how and when to use correct grammar. I do agree that many (often support) staff set a poor example and fail to recognise that using colloquialisms and slang in the classroom is inappropriate.
A child with immature speech who pronounces /th/ as /v/ or /f/is a totally different thing.

I have nothing against accents but I do have a bit of a thing about pronouncing th as f and dropping t off the end of words.

Also the "we was, we done" drives me mad- sorry I don't think this is accent or dialect or what ever you like to call it- simply bad grammar and I know lots of children who do not know it is incorrect because no one has told them! They therefore use this incorrect grammar when they write. This I think should be corrected by teachers at school- I certainly do with my pupils (but there again it is doubly important for them as they are deaf.)

Also the glottal stop used instead of the consonant in words such as little and naughty. I don't think correcting these damages accents at all and although I would never dream of correcting these in an adult I do correct my own children and encourage them to speak clearly.

I can in no way be described as posh BTW. I have an unmistakeable Essex accent.

I live in a rough arsed area. nobody would pronounce a 't' in water for fear of getting their head kicked in as a pansy.

On the other hand, they are all aware of it, and when speaking to the head master, or in an interview etc, most pull their T's out of their hats. Correct pronunciation is learned by the time they leave school usually, but it's not always used. It doesn't have to be. Who are we of the GLC trying to impress?

Quite, Constance.

Michael Parkinson has most certainly moderated his natural accent - he's from Barnsley! If he spoke in his childhood voice, no-one down South would have a clue what he was on about. Can you imagine him greeting an interviewee with 'ista reight, lass'?

ThingOne

that's kind of the point though about 'standard english'in the uk - it's middle class (with southern/northern variations) english, essentially. nothing to do with being behind the times, don't worry, you are not unfashionable.

'we done' is part of a dialect, smartiejake. of course, it's not standard english grammar and not a fantastic idea to use it on a cv etc so children do need to learn other types of english as well but it must be hard if you start school speaking a variation of english that has 'we done' and then not only have to learn to write but also learn to write 'we did'. much easier for the child who essentially has to transcribe what they say already. so using middle class english variations is going to make it easier for middle class children to do well initially at school.