Do you think state schools should do more to improve clarity of speech

[ReallyTired]

My son goes to a very rough state school where 30% of the kids are eligible for free school dinners. He is getting a good education, but developing a most atticous accent.

As the children are taught to read and write by synthetic phonics, you can see that the way they talk spills over into their writing. The spelling is perfect esturary. In someways it would be easier for them to learn to spell if they at least knew what standard English was even if they chose not to use it in their daily lives. Ie. They become quasi bilingual.

Would it help these kids if they had elecution lessons so that they would know how words are pronouced in standard English. Or would it be wrong to see regional accents as less good English.

Would it help the really bright kids when they are older and complete for uni places and job interview with the privately educated kids.

[morocco]

and while I'm musing, I wonder what the effect is on small children when their dialect is corrected

eg 'it isn't 'we done', the correct way is to say 'we did'

does that alienate some children more when they are just starting out on their school careers? would it make a difference if we talked to children about different ways of talking/writing with neither being more 'correct' than the other but one perhaps being more appropriate to a given situation. might also avoid a whole load of snobbery about language.

ooh, I do love talking about language

[ConstanceWearing]

I'm an English undergraduate, but I speak to fit in with everybody around me.
But as I say, I do live on a GLC estate. And when people express their disbelief, I say "I know how to write English; I don't have to speak it".

I really agree with Morocco. It's horrible for a child's self-esteem to be constantly correcting them on their speech. They do learn standard English from their teachers, by example, but initially 'middle class English' speaking children will do better than other children in literacy, yes. That doesn't mean that those with more regional accents cannot pick it up. We do, all the time.

Language and dialect is an essential part of who we are. You can actually understand most people if you listen with intent. We should speak more clearly? No!! People should listen harder

[edam]

That's not how communication works, though. If you want someone to hear you, you have to make the effort to get your point across. Unless they share the same roots, you may well have to moderate a strong regional accent or dialect to do so. I'm not from the North East, or Glasgow, and I have struggled to understand some people from those places with very strong accents.

[OrmIrian]

Quite edam. There are some natives to this area, in their 60s, that it is very very hard to understand. Not just accent, but also the 'way' they speak and the dialect words that simply mean nothing even 10 miles away. Whilst I love the idea of these local idiosyncracies I would feel sorry if any child spoke in that way and only in that way, as it would disadvantage them anywhere other than here.

[seeker]

My children are trilingual. They speak Estuary, Posh and Yorkshire depending on where they are and who they are with. I'm fine with this - you need protective colouration sometimes!

[edam]

yeah, if I went on about people being morngee (this is a rough spelling, it's dialect, have never seen it written down) then I don't think many people outside a few villages near Huddersfield would get what I mean. Or lakin about.

[TheCrackFox]

I live in abit of a rough area (Edinburgh) and the one thing I have noticed is that working class boys around here seem to leave school with no self confidence - can't make eye contact, mumble and have very thick accents. They are all but unemployable.

I have nothing against accents - variety is good - but in a competitive job market it is important that people can understand you at least.

[seeker]

I would spell it maungy, edam and my Bradford born dp uses it about our children all the time! (and me, on occasion!)

[edam]

I used to have a friend we all called maungy Ruth when I lived in Denby Dale. She was always getting upset about something, poor lass. Fell in the river EVERY time we went near it, for instance.

[swedishmum]

I have an issue with Estuary English - children do get lazy and start to spell words wrongly. I fink for eg. I work with children with literacy difficulties and aural discrimination is often very poor. Fill/feel is a common mistake round here, as is writing w instead of l at the end of a word - feow instead of fill for eg. Needs sensitive explaining.

As a parent I am determined my dd3 will learn to pronounce words properly as I believe it does have an influence on her ability to sound out words. It's not as bad as incorrect grammar though.

[ConstanceWearing]

How much trouble would we go to to try to understand someone who was deaf, and therefore did not pronounce words quite as distinctly as the fully-hearing? A lot, I dare say. So why do we have no patience with those who have different accents? Because we expect them to modify their language according to our ears.

Yes, we can meet in the middle, and we most often do. But to say 'I'm listening in middle class English, modify your speech accordingly' is arrogant. Your patience is also required. But nobody has any patience anymore.

[Tortington]

when i moved down south, they all had funny accents and no-one moderated them for me, but i am v. patient with southerners who can't speak proper

[ConstanceWearing]

lol custardo

[ReallyTired]

Deaf people (with either a captial D or a lower case d) have a lot of intensive help to gain reasonable speech. The reason is that it makes such a difference to their life opportunities. They have worked really hard to already meet the speaker in the middle. One in seven of the British population is deaf. Its far easier to lip read good speech.

A deaf person would really struggle to have a conservation with someone who has a really broad accent. Its easier said than done for someone who is uneducated with a really broad accent to modify it. No one wants to wipe out accents, but surely its possible to have an accent and clear english.

If children have a good education which teaches them the difference between their accent and standardised English then it gives the children choices.

[ConstanceWearing]

I have 40% hearing in one ear. That's all. And I can make out most people's speech by listening carefully and lip reading the rest. Anything I don't get I ask them to repeat.

I don't ask them to go to elocution lessons.

[Tortington]

i like accents - i think schools should concentrate on really important stuff like qualifications.

apart from some scottish accents, i can't think of an accent i dont understand. - some words maybe - but colloquialisms are fab.

i really really think this is a non issue for the most part.

i really really don't think that the majority of accents are unintelligable.

Accents are great and having an accent, does not negate reading and writng English correctly - this is what schools are for.

[ConstanceWearing]

Amen custardo

[MeMySonAndI]

Whether we like it or not, people tend to judge the level of culture/capabilities of a person by analysing how correct is their speach.

Being the child of a pedant people used to call "The Spanish ROyal Academy of the Language" I had an incredibly high level of Spanish language since a very early age.

Unfortunately... my father considered it totally superflous for us to learn another language from an early age so my pronunciation and use of the English language is far less than optimal despite of decades of study and practice.

So having been on both sides of the equation the only thing I can say is that I´m the same person, same qualifications, personality, skills, etc. but with the correct language skills job progress and even social acceptance/respect was a piece of cake, without them is a closed door most of the times.

So yes, I think that state schools should pay more attention to the pronunciation of their pupils. Having said that... DS attends a fantastic private school yet I can see that he is developing the local accent and I feel short changed, although I hope he will be able to switch it off when he considers it necessary.

[Ellbell]

IME even very young children are perfectly able to negotiate different accents and even different regional usages without difficulty. I speak with a fairly accentless English but my dds are growing up in Yorkshire. DD2 has just finished Year 1 and often points out that, while I say 'mum' (and that's what she calls me), most of her classmates say 'moom' [-ish ... sorry, spelling this phonetically is proving challenging!] and her teacher, who comes from somewhere else again, says 'mom'. She thinks it's interesting and she likes playing with the different varieties. (She'll sometimes come out with something like 'Eee, it were raaht good', and then look at me just to see if I will react. I like it; I see it as her being interested in language and how it works and (hopefully) good news for her future command of her own language and others.

[ConstanceWearing]

With all due respect, Me,myson&I, some people might judge a person's abilities by their command of the language.

Not all would.

I assume you are talking about employers, etc. These aren't the only people in society whose opinion counts

[Ellbell]

edam... is that the same as "tebbin' abaht"? (That's one of dh's!)

[MeMySonAndI]

Yes, Constance, but the ability to modulate your words according to the audience is at the base of good communication skills.

Unfortunately, the same way people pre-judge us via our apearance/clothes, they pre-judge us on the way we speak. It shouldn´t be like that in an ideal world but unfortunately is in ours.
I never said it only applied to jobs, it applies to everything

[MeMySonAndI]

Yes, Constance, but the ability to modulate your words according to the audience is at the base of good communication skills.

Unfortunately, the same way people pre-judge us via our apearance/clothes, they pre-judge us on the way we speak. It shouldn´t be like that in an ideal world but unfortunately is in ours.
I never said it only applied to jobs, it applies to everything

[ReallyTired]

Our children don't grow up an in ideal world and many of us don't have the money to send our children to St Posh's Prep school.

Private schools work very hard to get children to learn good communication skills. For example public speaking, debates, reciting poetry, more time for drama.

Unfortunately in state schools the crowded national curriculum squeezes these things out.

As well as clarity of speech there is learning to use the right vocabulary in the right circumstances. For example you might use the term "wee" when asking a four year old if they need the toilet, but in a science lesson you would use the term "urinate". Or another example when I discuss an IT problem with the network manager at work I use completely different language to when I discuss the same IT problem with an end user.

Private school children take up a huge propprtion of university places and top jobs. Part of the reason is that the confidence they have gained from being able to speak well and get their point across.

Rather than banning private schools why not see if its possible for state school kids to gain the same advantages.