Too much too young?

[lilithxx]

Hi,
My little boy is starting school in September a week after his 4th birthday. I am also expecting my second child at around this time.
The school have asked parents to ensure that the children can wipe their bottoms, put their coats on and get themselves changed after swimming and PE before they start school.
It is against my instinct to push him towards independence at the moment. He needs to feel happy and secure when his baby brother arrives, not that he is being pushed out of the nest.
I really feel that 4 is too young for school, but his school do not have a January or Easter intake, so it would be a case of waiting till he's 5.
What do you think?

Sorry mrsz I don't think any of those things are essential skills in a 5 year old.
Yes essential skills but not at 5. These things like everything else come with time and practice. My dd is 5 in a few months and can dress herself well, use cuttlery well enough to get by but struggles to undress herself she can do everything apart from pull a top or jumper over her head to get it off she gets stuck and lost half way but she is fantastic at so many other things and gets by well enough in some but I very much doubt even in a year or 2's time she will still be needing my help to get undressed. I really don't get this obsession some people have with forcing children to grow up when they are still so very small.

This reception debate makes me so glad that we live in Scotland and dd starts primary 1 after 2 years in pre-school nursery because she would have been VERY oung when she went into reception and I wouldn't have sent her because I know then she just wouldn't have been ready.

Gosh. I sense this thread is about to take a strange path. My response was to the original OP. As a general rule, I don't think any of those tasks listed are too much for most children of that age. Not in my experience no. Not from what I've observed children of that age doing. Mrsz, your posts suggest that some of your pupils come from deprived backgrounds and Juule, your children had specific reasons too. But generally speaking, I think most children could do all those tasks by that age. So not too much too young.

Plus it's debatable how essential reading and writing are at 4 or 5 for those children who aren't ready for those skills.

Agree with nkf I would think these skills are very typical requirements, or at least preferred requests, from schools. And I think pretty much every 4yo I know is capable of them at least to some extent. I don't think it is much to ask to have preschoolers work on them TBH.

I don't think that enabling a child to have bit of independence is the same as forcing her/him to grow up too soon.

I agree with juuule.

Pushing 4 and 5 year olds to read and write if they are not ready can be extremely damaging - not only to their perception of literacy, but also to their self esteem.

It can make reading into a chore, and many children lose any desire to read for pleasure, relaxation, in order to source information for themselves etc, etc.

juuule my point is that some children arrive in school and this is the way they eat in a social situation because they have never experienced any other way, which is why, as a teacher, I would like my new starters (providing their is no learning or medical difficulty) to be able to eat conventionally not with fingers and preferably not with a spoon as they are only provided with one which is for dessert.

IneedacleanerIamalazyslattern at no point in this thread have I said I expect 4- 5 year olds to be able to dress or undress without support. My ideal would be a child who can feed themselves and put on their own coat for an adult to help with the fastening.

Send him to school even if he doesn't know how to wipe his bottom (very well) etc... he'll soon learn, peer pressure is great for that.

I agree Anna. But save awkwardness all round and see if you can get him ready before he starts.

"peer pressure is great for that" and if he really can't do it and the peer pressure involves name-calling and ridiculing, what then? What if he starts holding because he doesn't want to be in the situation where he needs to wipe (which he knows he can't do) and becomes chronically constipated? Again not always as straightforward as it seems.

Lilith there's no harm in encouraging him to do these things. He might enjoy learning to do them for himself. Some of my children have. It might even make him feel even more happy and secure if he can do them and he might feel helpful to you when the baby arrives. I just wouldn't get too worked up or be pushy if he's finding any of it too difficult.
He might enjoy the whole thing. You know him best. Would it be worth letting him try it? There are always other options if you think it's not working - as others on here have advised.

I think most of school works largely on peer pressure, as does much of life. So, quite honestly, while getting your child ready (even ahead) for what is expected of him/her when he arrives at school is a lovely idea, in practice it can be an awful lot of hard work for the parent with not an awful lot of point to it.

I hate the idea of peer pressure but it would be naive to believe it isn't part of everyday life. I do try to protect children who aren't toilet trained or can't wipe their own bottom as far as possible (discretion in potentially embarrassing situations) but 4 and 5 year olds are very astute.

I'm another who'd say that if you have any concerns about putting your child in school at just 4, then don't do it.

Legally, your child doesn't have to be educated until the term after they become 5 (and if they still aren't ready for school then, you are perfectly entitled to HE them until they are ready)

And the social things - when a child is ready to learn all that social stuff, they'll learn it. They don't have to be in reception to learn all those things. All that play-based learning can be perfectly well done at home if your child isn't ready for school!

This whole one-entry-in-september thing has NOTHING to do with the needs of your child or with the needs of other August birthday children, or indeed with the particular needs of any of the children at all. It is all about the school maximising its funding.

As for missing nativity plays and harvest festivals: if that seems a big deal, go along and enjoy these events at the local school without your child being on the register. Or think "hmmm. How many years of harvest festivals is my child going to have while at school from 5 to 18? Is it going to destroy their future happiness to miss one when they are 4?" and if they do want to join in that sort of thing, you can find ways of doing it without sending them to school if school is in general not the right place for them just now!

School at just 4 is perfect perfect perfect for some children. They should be there. If yours isn't one of them, well join those of us who have opted out for the time being.

Good post onwardandupward. I totally agree.

So those saying defer - would you actually prefer the child to miss out reception altogether and go directly into Y1 after turning 5?

I don't think schols, esp in ststae system, will allow a child to ginto reception in such circumstances, not unless the child has particularly SEN.

IMO, 4 is too young to be at school. If he is not ready, and does not have to go, dont send him. He needs time to adjust to having a brother/sister around, and wont want to feel pushed out. He might associate going to school with new baby arriving. If he had to go to school, you would have to deal with that. But he does not.

DD is 4 in the July and will be expected (by people around us) to start school then. Not a chance. She will go to school when she is 5.

Children spend so much time at school, and by the time they leave, the leaving age will be 18. That is 14 years at school. Plenty plenty time to learn to be independent.

only read op.

my ds(6) started school at 3.5 it's way to young.

not happy at they way his education is panning out at all atm

Just wanted to point out that the information given is NOT the same in all LEAs - in the school where I teach in Leeds we have examples of this occurring regularly, where parents 'hold back' their children who then start the following year in Reception, not Year 1. I cannot think of one example where I've thought after their 7 years in primary school that it was a good idea. By the time they reach Year 6 all of these children seem to stand out both physically and emotionally apart from their peers.
If you're determined to follow this through, then I would contact the LEA to find out their policy on this, and also the school. Legally, your child has to attend school when they are 5 - if this occurs in August then you will not be breaking the law.

Your child does not have to attend school at all. Your child has to receive an education - in the term after they turn 5.

mrsz I never said you did I was merely making the point that some children are more independant in some skill than others and that a child who is not great with cutlery may be able to completely dress themself and vice versa.

If a child of mine was wanting to go into school at 5 rather than 4, then I'd look very carefully, with them, at the kinds of things happening in the reception class and in the year 1 class, and get them slotted in where it would suit them best. And if it's one of those if-you-don't-put-them-in-at-3.5-there'll-be-no-places-left scenarios then I'd still want to follow the needs of the child NOW rather than borrowing trouble and putting them in before they are ready.

None of this is one of those make-the-wrong-decision-now-and-you'll-regret-it-for-ever decisions. Children can go into school at any age having been HEed until they wanted to go to school. Children can come out of school if they are unhappy there at any point, as long as their parents are able/willing to educate them outside school. Children can change year groups (my sister did - she repeated, erm, something around year 6 because she'd gone up to middle school a year older with her friends from the village primary. Didn't seem to destroy her personality or prospects - she's a middle school teacher herself now... must have reallllly loved that extra year...)

I hate the idea of putting a child into school before they are really ready because we the parents are scared of them missing out. If we put them in even at 7, the system still has them for more than a decade - plenty long enough for schools to make their mark, surely?!

Can I just ask does your little boy attend pre school or similar?

I sent DS1 to school when he was 4+4 weeks and I still maintain that it was the worst education choice I ever made for any of my kids (he's now nearly 15). If I could do it again there is no way that I would send a child to school that young. All kids are different though and as you can see from other posters here it's worked out ok for some kids - you know your child best. DD will turn 6 two weeks after she starts in kindy (reception) next January which I am much happier with - I could have sent her this year but the difference is that here (Australia) you have a choice depending on what you think is best for your child. I think the UK system where they miss reception if you hold them back sucks.

They don't miss Reception in the UK system! Not in my authority, anyway.

Wait until 5!