Too much too young?

[lilithxx]

Hi,
My little boy is starting school in September a week after his 4th birthday. I am also expecting my second child at around this time.
The school have asked parents to ensure that the children can wipe their bottoms, put their coats on and get themselves changed after swimming and PE before they start school.
It is against my instinct to push him towards independence at the moment. He needs to feel happy and secure when his baby brother arrives, not that he is being pushed out of the nest.
I really feel that 4 is too young for school, but his school do not have a January or Easter intake, so it would be a case of waiting till he's 5.
What do you think?

Unless I am mistaken, children do not have to start school until term after their 5th birthday. They then start in reception, not Year 1. That is what has happened to the children in my school anyway. I currently have children in my class who are August birthdays. They delayed 12 months and are a year behind their original cohort (so to speak).

Just to say that my DS1 a late Aug bd coped with starting school aged 4yrs 1 week (single intake) better than I could have hoped. Furthermore he didn't link starting school to the birth of DS2 at the start of Aug. Each child is different but they do adapt quickly and the teachers are very practiced at helping them settle in.

In our area you either start September of the academic year your child is in, or lose your school place . No flexibility at all. But I think reception is fantastic for children - they grow so much during that year (in maturity I mean, not height!), it would be VERY hard for them to go straight into Y1 - not only would they be the youngest, but would be the youngest with no foundation stage behind them, and I think they would always struggle. Plus, friendship groups are established, although obviously people come and go at all times. But both ds1 (Y2) and dd (YR) have a 'solid' best friend now, well established.

Ours do swimming in Y1! They have the swimming gala next week - and get this - EVERY CHILD from Y1-Y6 swims....the logistics of this are TERRIFYING imo - getting 250 children changed ready for the correct race and then changed back...

Only children with SEN could defer a year and start in reception and it would be highly unusual and IME the knock on effect is a nightmare.

Most kids can do those things at four. They can do a lot more than we give them credit for.

Out of my class of 30 children there were two who could do those things last September and a year later I still have 5 who can't...

Couldn't wipe their bums?

August-born DS1 started in reception in the September, 3/4 weeks after DS3 was born. Although used to pre-school nursery anyway, he adapted pretty well at the time.

They also did swimming in reception, but not until the summer term (and tbh most of the children had had swimming lessons anyway).

I would seriously consider asking about him starting part-time if you have concerns.

Marathon, which LEA do you work for, because ime, that is very unusual? The parents of the prem twins who wanted them to stay back a year were turned down forst time and had to go to appeal.

I'm not doubting you at all, it's just almost unheard of afaik. How did the parents do it, or is it just blanket LEA policy? I'd really like to know how it works because I know/knew so many mums of Aug babies who are/were worried
about them starting school so young.

There's plenty of us on here, so if it's a feasible option I'm sure we'd all jump at it .

Couldn't wipe their bums or use cutlery to eat lunch or put coats on.
I had a meeting with a parent the other week and she confessed to still wiping her KS2 child's bum

But surely they could if they were shown and encouraged to do it.

mrsz All circumstances are different.
I still wipe my ks2 dd bottom. She has had to deal with encopresis since she was 3 and is on long-term medication for that. She has a distrust of knowing when she has 'been', whether she has soiled herself or not. The consistency of what comes out is sometimes like pitch (memories of meconium) and is almost impossible for her to clean herself. So, while she is improving in the encopresis dept. she is tentative about wiping herself satisfactorily, although that is also improving immensely now. So not all situations of parents wiping their ks2 child's bottom deserve a
It's posts like that which contribute to my belief that we did the correct thing withdrawing her from school.

Obviously I don't know what the circumstances are of the parent that you spoke to.

Of course I know that some children will struggle but a child who doesn't have any specific special needs, could be taught. No?

Yes, some children will struggle. They develop different things at different rates. In reception, a lot are still learning lots of different things. I don't think it's odd that some are not capable of using a knife and fork at 4yo or are unable to do any of the other things lilith listed. I don't think that most reception teachers would find it odd either.

Mrsz -The fact that your reception class started with only 2 being able to do those things and ended with only 5 still being unable to do them shows just how much most children will develop those skills over the period of a school year. Maybe the 5 just need a bit more time.

juuule I accept that some children have reasons and would never criticise but this particular child has no difficulties other than a mother and grandmother who see to his every need.
He does actually see to his own toileting needs in school (because he has been encouraged to) but apparently at home (according to both mum and granny's accounts) he shouts "I'm done!" and mum or granny run to his call. This came up in a discussion about why he and his younger sister always arrived in school half an hour after everyone else. Which apparently is because he can't (read won't) dress himself which he can manage very quickly for PE.

My children don't just arrive not being able to use a knife and fork they arrive never having seen a fork at home. I've actually had parents complain because we give them knives and forks rather than spoons and the fact that we don't feed them.

I agree they probably do need more time but at the same time if these important life skills were being reinforced in the home they may well have mastered them much sooner.

I think given that children copy adults and babies grab spoons, it's really odd that a five year old can't use a knife and fork. Okay, a bit fumbly but making a good go of it. Enough to eat pasta or shepherd's pie or the insides of a baked potato (typical school fare). Some childen have developmental issues but perhaps others are given finger food for a long time. I remember reading about some etiquette expert who taught Californian computer types how to eat in fancy restaurants (after they'd made their dot com millions.) They were used to sandwiches and pizzas and burgers. I would imagine that a reception age child who hasn't seen a knife and fork is coming from a fairly deprived background.

Some of my children have a packet of biscuits for their tea and a bag of crisps or an ice lolly for breakfast we spend a lot of time introducing them to food. I once had a mother complain because her daughter asked for a tin of peas in the supermarket after we had tasted pea pods in school...

But aren't these different issues. While some children might be deprived and as a result behind in some areas of development, others might be "behind" simply because they haven't matured enough to that stage.

I'm just a little bit taken aback by the apparant blanket shock that 4yo and some 5yo can't do all the things mentioned. And the associated blanket parental condemnation for any child in that position.

My eldest ds didn't like to do a lot of things for himself. He was very quick academically, though. Eventually, he caught up and wanted to do things himself.

Another child preferred to use a spoon over a knife and fork as she found it easier. Now 17 she has been able to use a knife and fork correctly for years. Some things, imo, are not overly essential at 4 or 5y of age and with encouragement will come as the child gets older.

so you would be quite happy to take a 5 year old into a restaurant and them pick up their lasagne or trifle in their fingers? These are important social skills and equally as important as reading and writing at the age of 5.

No - they could use a spoon if they preferred to. Why would you think that I'd be happy to do that?