Collective worship in primary school. What is it exactly?

[Dragonbutter]

I'm looking at primary schools for DS1 who will start september 2009.
I've specifically chosen non-faith schools but have found that two out of the three schools i've looked at mention 'collective worship' on their websites.

I am humanist/atheist and I don't have a problem with him learning about different religions but the term 'worship' is worrying me.

So what is it exactly?
Do all schools do it?

Why do we need our children to take part in a religious ceremony at school though?

stoats, that would suit me fine. No more amens.

TimeWasting you can't have it both ways ... the type of assembly most schools follow aren't satisfying your definition of "worship" so you want everyone to hold full religious ceremonies so you can moan about it!

I really don't like it when the local vicars come in preaching their view of Christianity (i.e. unquestioning faith) and sing happy clappy songs. This, in my view, should not be allowed, because they are actually giving the children the message that Christianity is 'the only way'. Teachers aren't allowed to foist their views on the children, so why should that be allowed in assembly?

Worse still the vicars are on the Board of Gov and appear to use their position to promote their religion both in assembly, in the school generally and promote their church events in the weekly Newletter - if they were involved in any other business I'm sure more people would object more, I find it all very creepy.

ok timewasting lovely colourful language btw if youve been in a school you may notice quite a lot of us throughout this thread HAVE been telling you but your so narrow minded they DO teach and have days celebrating the other religions thats precisely our point and as mrz explained they do often have silent prayer which is left to the individual to direct at their god if they have one or not as the case may be, i ddint swear at you why the need for such anger is it perhaps you as mrz says have not really got a valid argument/ anything to object to

I'm with TW all the way here, there is no possible justification for religious worship in schools. None whatsoever. Church and state should be utterly separate, and 'collective worship' in schools drives me wild. I have actually written to my MP about it but other than that there's little I can actually do other than pull my children out of assemblies. Which I am loathe to do because it marks them out. Bah, I hate it. I love the fact that come schools and heads are brave and intelligent enough to stand up against this mockery of a law, I just wish all of them would.

all the assemblies ive been too at 4 different schools the only one that did talk openly and consistently about god was the ecumenical school my ds went to even then they still has assemblies on other faiths as well, ALL the schools had one thing in common teaching children to love , be kind , considerate and tolerant of each other seems a lesson we all need to learn more of IMHO

I joined the Humanist Society to object to Collective worship in schools. You can also vocalise your discontent, as you have done - you can be one less of the presumed "majority" who apparently don't mind time being wasted spent worshiping a fictional character. It's hardly chaining yourself to the railings but at least your views won't be entirely invisble and you may give others the courage to speak out against this subtle religious brainwashing. It's unlikely any politition regardless of their religious belief will have the balls to tackle this issue - we no longer have a Liberal Party!

bettyboop63 Sun 06-Mar-11 21:17:52

"teaching children to love , be kind , considerate and tolerant of each other seems a lesson we all need to learn more of IMHO"

Couldn't agree with you more bettyboop, but why do they need to make my child take part in an actual act of worship to a non existant imaginary friend in the sky to do so? It's ridiculous.

Thabks pinkcushion, I'll look into the HUmanist Society. Most of my friends are of the lapsed anglican persuasion who can't quite not believe, iykwim. They look at me as if I'm nuts when I talk about how I feel...

So for the athiest parents - how do you react to your child singing 'all things bright and beautiful?'

how sad if you wish to call it brainwashing to spend 10 mins of yr day head bowed being asked to think of others rather than just yourself , because thats all they are doing and if youve been to a few different schools and watched (excluding i catholic schools) the "majority" of you will know how narrow minded and wrong you are so very intolerant it makes me worry if this is the attitude of people these days very scary indeed

sparkle12mar08 if you had read the thread you would see that the act of worship in most schools doesn't according to TimeWasting involve worship which is what TimeWasting is objecting to...

Is to worship - to think of others or is it to think of God? I don't see the need to use the word worship - my dcs learn to put their hands together to pray at school - why tell them to do that to think of others?

I object to the notion that my dcs have to collectively worship in a Christian way to love others, consider their feelings and be good people - that is deeply insulting to those of us who do not choose to worship a god.

How is objecting to your dc being forced to worship in a Christian way narrow minded, I'm intrigued?

Mrz - I wod have felt a lot more comfortable with your school's definition of Collective Worship but the Infant school my dcs attended was full on and I had no experience of any other school (I was not educated in this country) and to me this was the way it was meant to be, I felt very comfortable about the way it was taught - even some very religious parents privately expressed concerns about the school's heavy focus on God and this was supposed to be a normal state school.

betty, your passive aggressive attitude to me prompted any 'colourful language' I might have used.
If you can't see why I would find what you said to me to be offensive, then we're going to continue to have difficulty having any sort of intelligent debate here.

The law requires worship. That's what we always did at school, said the Lord's prayer, sang lots of hymns, discussed how wonderful the Lord's creation is etc.

If school's are moving away from that sort of religious ceremony is it perhaps because many people aren't comfortable with religious indoctrination in our schools, so it's been watered down to the level that's been described, with the amen added on to satisfy the law and the few religious zealots who believe that school is a good place to teach children how to pray. Distinct form teaching them about prayer.

I believe that collective worship should be removed from state schools, however inoffensive you believe it to now be.

I felt very uncomfortable and I of course know how to spell would - damn the bloody lack of edit button!!!

if you resort to colourful language timeWasting its because you CANT have intelligent debate,nothing i said was offensive but your whole manner of trying to enforce on the majority your in my opinion missguided ideals is extremely offensive, but i didnt resort to personal attack as you do.ive been to quite a few schools growing up myself pinkcushion and ive 3 DC who've been to 3 different first/middle schools and in none of them have the HT asked them at assembly to put their hands together and pray they use the phrase let us pray which takes us back to earlier threads again where we discussed that this leaves it open for wether you believe or not or perhaps have a different god, even in the one middle school my youngest DC went to an ecumenical school they still did not sing hymns they sang at harvest festival the well known song fields of barley which was very beautiful , im not religious myself if you had time to read all the posts what we were saying is exactly that they are not very religious anymore being PC they try and make them non discript so as not to offend what a couple of MNrs were saying is they didnt like calling it worship( none of the schools ive been to call it that either except obviously the ecumenical school) which i had to send my DS too because their was no room at the other inn lol sorry couldnt resist

Wow. I really don't think it's me that's got the problem with intelligent debate betty.

You said 'TimeWasting that name is very apt for you have a good day' which was a personal attack that was unprovoked as far as I could see. Using my username to attempt to discredit my argument should illustrate to anyone reading though that you don't have much of an argument yourself though.

And saying 'let us prayer' makes it a religious ceremony, sorry that you can't see that, blindingly obvious to me.

Betty, why do you think children should pray in school?

your typing as if your a different person suddenly lol and to ask that question proves you didnt read or listen to anything that was said earlier , i was only personal in that YES i was talking to you if you wish to be so defensive its nothing to do with me perhaps you need to look into that further, and ANYONE who resorts to vile insults isnt worth talking to

Bettyboop - The act of praying and the use of the term 'Let us pray', whether with hands together or not, heads bowed or not, is an act of worship. The use of the Lords prayer, and of 'Amen' is an act of worship. Hyms, harvest festivals, christmas services, carols etc, they all pre-suppose the existance of a deity at all. They are scripturally defined terms and rooted in religious worship. They do not, as you state, leave it open as to whether one believes at all or not.

Would any of you be happy if an Imman came to lead prayers to Allah, or a Sikh leader leading worship to Vāhigurū, or a Catholic priest, or a Rabbi etc and all children were obliged to take part? Not just to witness a service, but to take part? Because that's exactly what happens when teachers, heads etc are obliged to produce assemblies using any of these means (prayers, hymns etc). And just because something is not 'very religious' does not mean it is non-religious.

MrsZ - I've read every single post on the thread, and whilst I agree with you that most schools try to avoid any overtly religious content (and quite rightly imo), it's the wider issue that I am really angry about. The fact that schools are hidebound by a ridiculous law which means they have to have some kind of group 'worship' at all, that they then have jump through hoops and to try not to offend. The entire clause needs to be scrapped. Group contemplation on ethics, morals, etc is great and we probably need more of it, but we do not need to have that cast under the umbrella of religion.

Yes, it'the law under the national curriculum.

However in DCs primary the 'collective worship' involves one class assembly per week when different classes present performances, songs and examples of their work, and another where they give out achivement awards, class awards for punctuality and attendance and sing Bob Marley songs, 'The World's Greatest', 'Something Inside So Strong' and a range of Caribbean call and response songs. Once a year there is a carol service - which includes that well know religious number 'Frosty the Snowman'.

Once they go to school they come across all sorts of ideas and take part in many things that you don't support, it's part of entering the complexity of the wider world and won't harm.

But the legal requirement for 'collective worship' in a non-faith community state school is outrageous and I suggest that like me you write to your MP about it.

Sorry - just to clarify - the class assemblies are thier general work, nothing religiou at all. Unless the demonstrate the clay divas they make every year when learning about diwali.

betty, if you think 'screw you' in response to an unprovoked personal attack is a 'vile insult' then I'm not sure you're on the same planet, so, basically, whatever.
I can't see anything in your posts that directly answers my question, so why not answer it? I do genuinely want to know your answer.