Primary school catchment - both schools over-subscribed

[muddledig]

I appreciate it’s early to be looking at this for 2027 entry but would appreciate any advice/knowledge! It’s a long post, sorry, tried to give as much info as possible in case it’s relevant. But in summary, both primary schools in my catchment area are oversubscribed. Will the LA have to find us a place at one of them because we’re in catchment? Or should we be looking at other nearby (also over-subscribed) schools?

We are in catchment for 2 primary schools. Both are over-subscribed, school 1 is technically the no.1 rated school in our area (out of about 30), school 2 is no. 23 rated, according to find my school. (Before anyone says it - yes, we will look round the schools before applying, and yes I understand that the rankings are only one measure of success, and not necessarily an indicator of the best fit for my child). I do have a preference on paper - partly because one is a faith school and one isn’t.

Last year, school 1 had 170 applicants for 60 places, and school 2 had 90 applicants for 30 places. we are closer to school 2, but well within the catchment for both, they are in opposite directions from us. Looking at previous admissions, it seems unlikely, based on distance (we meet none of the criteria to give us more priority) that we would be offered a place at either school.

So what do we do? Should we be planning to look round other local schools to put those down as our 3,4,5 and 6th choices? There are schools closer to us than school 1 that we are not in the catchment area for, but they are also over-subscribed. Please help me make it make sense!!

So someone with a 3rd place choice who hasn’t been given 1 or 2 would need to be given a place if they ranked 29th at that school on criteria even if they hadn’t put it as 1st choice. It’s based on criteria for admissions not whether they put it as 1st choice, it’s just that if it wasn’t 1st choice and they were offered a place elsewhere they can then be removed from the list and others move up.

OP seems to think it’s based on preference and not putting a school as 1st preference means you won’t get it, this is a common misconception.

So where does 'living in catchment ' rank on the admissions criteria list? If it's not mentioned and it's just 'Distance' then surely it's not a catchment area?

I’m sorry I don’t understand the question? Yes our address is within the catchment area for both school 1 and 2, they both have a defined catchment area, and my understanding is that both use the catchment area in their admissions criteria. At school 1 distance is a higher priority than school 2.

I would just focus on the last distance offered and not be too concerned about catchment. Most London schools just have last distance offered and no catchment at all, and catchment is fairly meaningless if you don't live close enough to the last distance offered. It only becomes relevant in certain boundaries where you might live quite close but not within the catchment, then you wouldnt stand a chance of a place even though you might live closer than someone in catchment.

I would maybe use up a couple of your six choices on the schools you want most, but focus the remaining choices on schools that you live comfortably within the last distance offered for (where that is the main entry criteria). I wouldn't rely too much on falling birth rates - it hasn't really affected the chances of getting into the very oversubscribed schools - having a few less other candidates doesn't help you if the current applicants all live closer than you. All it means is that the less popular schools are even more undersubscribed.

Distance is not the same as catchment. What priority is catchment?

What are the actiual oversubscription criteria, though? If the school has a defined priority admissions area, then this wording - or 'catchment area' - will be used in one of them, e.g.

1. LAC / PLAC (this is a statutory requirement)
2. Siblings
3. Living within the school's catchment area
4. Other applicants, ranked on distance from home

For a fairh school, 'living within <specified> parishes' may be a substitute for 'catchment area'.

But if the criterion is just 'Distance', wirh no mention of a defined geographical area, then that school does not have a defined catchment area.

School's have catchment areas (or don't, as the case may be). Your specific address may fall into the defined catchment area for a named school (or, less commonly, schools), or it may not, in which case, each school you apply to will rank you under its final criterion, unless you meet a higher one, such as your DC being baptised into the faith of the school etc. There should be a facility on your LA's website to check this; the information may be in a section within School Admissions, or within a more general section on services for addresses within the LA (e.g., you look up your street and it tells you that your bin day is Tuesday, you are in catchment for X primary school and Y secondary school).

What people usually mean by School A, School B and School C are in my catchment area is that these are the nearest schools that they like in their area. It then turns out that School D, less desirable but on their doorstep, is their actual catchment area school, where they would have been ranked safely within PAN, but they didn't name it, none of the schools they did name ranked them within PAN, and now they're moaning that they've been allocated, as per the Admissions Code, the nearest school with a place available and it's another school they don't like, but three miles and two changes of bus away,

I really wish this was better understood.

I liked @Lougle ‘s explanation about how it is all allocated.

Yes. If school C has a PAN of 60, and:

• a parent has put School C as their third place preference

• they are within the first 60 people who meet the criteria
• their first and second place preferences do not have a space for them

Then they will get a place at school C even if there are 100 parents who put the school as their first or second preference but meet the admissions criteria less well.

This is why we see claims that 'something went wrong' every year, because Johnny got a place at the school even though it was his third preference and Jenny didn't even though it was her first preference.

Preference only counts when you have multiple options.

The reason we always say 'Include a school you have a reasonable chance of being accepted by, even if you don't want it' is that if no school on your list can offer you a place, the LA will look for a school that can. But that will be after all the places that have been requested are allocated.

Example:

Lucy lives very close to school A but she doesn't like it. So she puts school B, C and D on her list:

• B is highly oversubscribed and has a sibling policy. There are lots of siblings this year. They can't take her child.
• C is close but they have a catchment area that goes West and stops in the next village. The oversubscription criteria places in catchment children above our catchment children. Despite being closer to the school than some children in the catchment area, the fact that they are out of catchment means the child doesn't get a place because the last places went to in catchment children.
• D was always a long shot. The past 5 years, the furthest distance offered was 1.1 miles. Lucy lives 1.6 miles away, but she thought it might be a better year. The gamble didn't pay off and her child lives too far away.

But it's ok, she thinks, because school A is really close. Except that school A was not on her list. It has a PAN of 60, 45 people put it on their list, so they got places, then the remaining places went to people in the same situation as Lucy but they live closer.

Now, Lucy's child has been allocated a school she's never heard of, 6 miles away, because they have places. She's not entitled to transport because had she put school A on her list, her child would have got a place there.

Yes this.

Where does 'in the school's catchment area" rank in the admission criteria @muddledig ?

If it does not appear at all then the school does not have a catchment; it is simply a school you live near enough to to expect to get a space.

@Lougle's posts are very clear. As I already posted, there's a secondary local to me with a very specific catchment area and there are numerous villages that are in catchment where DC will get a space (if they list the school obvs) but DC who live in the next village – a lot nearer than some of the catchment villages – will not (bc there is an alternative school that is also near, unlike the isolated villages).

7 schools within a mile of you? Wowsers.

My dd school was 1.3 miles away walking (driving was further as my town has lots of shortcut paths to facilitate walkers and cyclists ) and honestly it didn’t stop her friendships - in fact she’s still great friends with her best friend who lives a 1 min walk from the primary school (imagine how HER mum felt when her dd, living almost on top of the school, made a best friend in year 1 who lives 1.3miles in the wrong direction!)

Agree with @Lougle

Just to add, don't be overly concerned by all schools being oversubscribed. Because every parent applies to multiple schools, most will be oversubscribed. The only ones that aren't will be schools that are very unpopular.

To illustrate this, imagine a town with three schools each with a PAN of 60. Applications are submitted for 180 children. All of the parents lists all three schools as preferences. All three are therefore heavily oversubscribed - 180 applications for 60 places. However, all 60 children will get a place at one of these three schools.

@clary would you be willing to PM me the name of the school so I can look at the wording of the admissions policy? Our rural area would benefit from this approach. Thank you

@prh47bridge and @Lougle are there any resources (eg simple websites or videos) that explain the way school admissions works to people? The preference ordering is difficult to understand. I’ve often felt it should be better phrased as - you can list X number of schools you would like to be considered for and then indicate your priority order for if you qualify for a place at than one.

Every Local Authority explains the process on their page. They take the explanation from the School Admissions Code 2021

Every Local Authority has to use the same process. Some LAs use more preferences than others. Some areas have grammar schools, and the rules for those are also in the code.

To add to @Lougle's post, some LAs explain it better than others. But a lot of parents don't read the information available or, if they do, they either don't understand it (no matter how clearly it is expressed) or they prefer to believe the various myths about admissions.

Unfortunately some people just won't take it in, now matter how clearly and how often it is explained to them.

The issue isn't with the explanation, I think. It's with people listening to rumours, and for thinking they can game the system by only putting one preference, or only putting a preference for a school which they have no hope of being allocated, and the Local Authority will be forced to give them their choice because there are no alternatives.

The worst part is that by fluke or anomaly, every year someone will qualify for a place at a school which seems surprising, so it reinforces the notion that it will work.

Similarly, every year people will win appeals because a school can't successfully argue that it is truly full, so they think that their argument about logistics, friendship groups, etc., was a good one. Or someone will use an advocate for a case that they would have won anyway, but they then say that people should use an advocate because they won using one.

Additionally, schools can specify feeder schools that give priority for admissions. Therefore, a child could have got a place at an out of area undersubscribed school in Year R, which has now become very popular, and gets priority for a secondary school even further from their house.

@Lougle I agree with all this and hear the same arguments. But I do still think the preference system confuses even relatively clued up people. There is a belief that putting popular/over-subscribed choices above a safe bet is a risky strategy because by the time they get to looking at 5th choices, the places will have already been taken by those who placed that school higher up their lists and that you’ll end up with none of your preferences. I know that isn’t how it works and that as long as you put at least one school you are sure you will qualify for on your list then you can take a punt on higher ranking options. But it’s hard to articulate

Given you mention a local school has closed due to demographic changes, be sure to check the admissions policy for 27/28, especially the PAN and compare it with 26/27 (& previous if available / keen). It may be that some local schools change their PAN. Are you in an area with new build housing, as there may still be new schools building up to full capacity too. Definitely use all your preferences and don’t just consider the two catchment schools.

I don't think it is hard to articulate, to be honest.

Hampshire states:

https://www.hants.gov.uk/educationandlearning/admissions/applicationprocess/howitworks

"How applications for school places are processed

The Schools Admission Code requires that applications are processed under an ‘equal preference system’. This means that applications are ranked against the oversubscription criteria in the admission policy of each school named on the application. The order in which you name your preferred schools is not taken into account. In fact, schools are not told where they were ranked in your list of preferences.

How it works
You can name up to three schools on your application, in order of preference
Your child is added to a list for each of the schools you have named. Each schools list is then ranked in accordance with the published admission criteria for that school to determine whether they are able to offer a place
If only one of your preferred schools can offer a place, you will be allocated a place at that school
If your child qualifies for a place at more than one school, the one ranked highest on your application will be allocated
If none of your preferred schools can offer a place, you will be allocated a place at the catchment school (if places remain) or the nearest school (measured as a straight line) with a place available. You will also be advised of the arrangements for placing your child on the waiting list and your right of appeal

Example 1
You apply for three schools in the following preference order:
1st preference School A
2nd preference School B
3rd preference School C

All three of your preferred schools are able to offer a place. You are therefore allocated a place at School A. Your second and third preferences are discarded on the basis that you were allocated your highest preference school.

Example 2
You apply for three schools in the following preference order:
1st preference School A
2nd preference School B
3rd preference School C

School A is unable to offer a place but School B and School C can offer. You are therefore allocated a place at School B. School C is discarded because you were offered one of your higher preference schools. You are refused a place at School A and advised of the arrangements for placing your child on the waiting list and your right of appeal."

I'm not sure it can be much plainer or in more basic language than that. The problem is that some people don't want the school they will realistically be allocated, so decide to try to engineer a different outcome against a system that has a protocol.

@RocketLollyPolly I have PMd you (tho it's not really a secret tbh)

I will say as someone who has tried for years to google it, I think I have been thwarted by using the word “algorithm” in my searches. I had assumed its was a Gale-Shapely style algorithm. So I do think it’s harder to find than you think.

However I am very grateful that you’ve shown me where it’s defined, @Lougle. Thank you!

It is that, but it's described as 'Equal preference scheme'

To put it in Gale-Shapely terms, the applicants would be the proposers, and the schools would be the receivers.

Using the example of Hampshire, which allows 3 'proposals' from applicants, if there are 600 applicants, there will be 1800 proposals.

Each school will rank all the applicants that proposed them. The schools do not know whether the proposer ranked them as 1, 2, or 3. So they treat them all as if they had proposed them in position 1 ('Equal preference').

The admitting authority for each school returns the list to the LA. In many cases that will be the LA itself. These lists are collated by applicant.

Applicant 1 can be accepted by school A, so it's logged. But then school B and school C also return acceptances. The LA looks at the preference - it was school B. So Applicant 1 is confirmed at school B and rejected at schools A & C, which creates a new opening for proposals at A & C.

This process continues until all proposals have an acceptance. For any applicants that are outstanding, a 4th proposal is created for the catchment school. If that is accepted, their place is logged. If not, they systematically propose the next nearest school in a straight line distance, then the next, then the next, then the next, until they have an acceptance.

Rarely, there may be no school place in the first round, but most LAs manage to place all children.

Once the process is done, any applicants without a place will be found a place using Fair Access Protocol, etc.